Aug21

Can a Hot Woman Like Me Hold Out on Sex Until I Get a Commitment?

08:00 am on Aug 21st 2008 Evan Marc Katz

Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice

Tags: dating, dating advice, dating tips, relationship advice, relationship tips, sex, understanding men

Read More...

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125 Responses to “Can a Hot Woman Like Me Hold Out on Sex Until I Get a Commitment?”

1. Loving Annie Aug 21st 2008 at 08:45 am 1

   Evan,
   I so disagree with you. She told him that she found him attractive and she just wanted to wait until they were monogamous and she knew something was there between them.

   She was still willing to kiss and cuddle so she wasn’t being a tease or frigid, - she just wanted to wait before going all the way.

   He bailed because he didn’t get laid - his instant gratification was denied. He showed he right there that he was an assclown - and also that he didn’t value her enough to SHOW her over the next few dates that he cared/this was going to go somewhere.

   That is different from not letting him know there was chemistry.
   Of course someone will walk if they feel they aren’t wanted - this wasn’t the case with her.

   If a guy can’t wait for date 9 or 10 - he’s showing by his actions a lack of respect and genuine interest in HER. He can jack off for a few nights without it killing him.

   Yes, it may mean that few guys wait - that doesn’t mean the RIGHT guy won;’t be thrilled that she respects herself not to give it us easily, is intrigued by her healthy boundaries, and know they have a 1,000 times for wild monkey sex after just a few other weekends go by.

   A little frustration leads to increased desire as two peoplem begin to know each-other, it’s sort of like foreplay, you want it, you fantasize about it, when it finally happens things are incredibly intense between the two of you.

   She didn’t say he had to wait 6 months or something really hardcore that might have made him felt she was playing games/didn’t like or want sex with him.

   Your e-mail/phone example wasn’t comparable with this. Gently encouraging someone while taking it slow was exactly what this woman WAS doing.

   You’ve got to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a Prince.

2. Honey Aug 21st 2008 at 08:51 am 2

   Well said, Evan!

3. Kris Aug 21st 2008 at 11:41 am 3

   Wow. Evan, you make men sound like SO MUCH WORK. Are they really?

   This is an interesting situation because this man has done all the “right” things in terms of introducing her to his friends, respecting her wishes, etc. It does sound to me like he wasn’t ready to commit. Personally I have never had this particular sex/no sex problem. Rather than put it on the man, trying to get him to say something about his feelings or status, I simply state my end, which is, “If you’re sleeping with other people I can’t sleep with you.” I sometimes go on to explain it’s not safe disease-wise, and is likely to hurt my feelings. Historically if the man is interested but has any other things going, he will excuse himself, wrap up or disengage from any loose ends out there, and put focus on getting to know “us” more. I don’t usually expect a man to expose his feelings so soon. In fact, sometimes they’ve asked me what mine are first!

   So, I re-read your statement: “…I wanted to be sure that we weren’t seeing other people first. I told him I could see myself getting more attached to him if we got really physical and just wanted to know there might be something there. Then I said that I was perfectly willing to talk about it all now if he was too…” It’s a lot and seems like you’re asking him to reveal a lot, verbally, about if he’s seeing someone, and if there’s, “something there.” I think it can be hard for men, or anyone, to do this on date 4. Then there’s the “if” of getting physical. I agree with Evan that men need to know it’s an eventuality, not an, “if.” So, again, my advice is, you just state YOUR position without working on getting information out of him. If he is interested, he KNOWS you are, and he’ll will act accordingly.

   Since this guy did all the right things, but time has passed and you haven’t heard from him, why not call him up and get some feedback? Like, “It seemed we were on the road to getting to know each other and I was really enjoying that. It’s fine with me to not continue since it seems you don’t want to…I’m just wondering if I offended you in some way?” You may be surprised by what you hear. Maybe he got a little freaked out and he’s been hoping YOU will call. Or, maybe he’ll just say, “You know, I did have someone else I was interested in and that suddenly took off.” Either way, you’ll have your answer! Better than sitting around wondering…

   Good luck,

   Kris

4. BeenThruTheWars Aug 21st 2008 at 11:41 am 4

   I agree with Annie’s post no. 1. The right guy will ABSOLUTELY wait for sex with his dreamgirl. I don’t care how old or how experienced the players are, or how “hot” or “plain” they are. This is just a fact. Decent men who are the “marrying kind” want to know that the woman they are considering making a lifelong commitment to is not sexually easy for them to get — because that means she will be sexually easy for other men to get, and I don’t care what men say in jest about how fun it is dating a nympho or whatever, they DO NOT want to think about their sweethearts being promiscuous.

   I was 44 and my now-husband was 34 when we were courting. We kissed beginning on the second date and we didn’t seriously make out until about the 9th date, after he asked me to be exclusive. We went to bed shortly after that. He asked me about sex early on and I smiled and said lightly, “I’m a really generous woman, but the one thing I won’t share is my man. If I think there’s any possibility of our doing this really special thing together, then the next night you’re off doing that same special thing with another woman, that just doesn’t appeal to me, sorry.” He loved it! All the other women who jumped in bed with him, thinking it would be the way to hook him or hold onto him — wrong. He would take what he wanted and be outa there. He’d been waiting his whole life for the woman who valued herself enough to hold out for at least the promise that exclusive dating might lead someplace permanent. That kind of woman is rara avis. ESPECIALLY when she is hot!

   I do think you’re messing up in terms of your approach, though, Colette. It sounds like in response to “Let’s get intimate” you initiated a big relationship talk (which most men HATE), wanting to know where he stood right then and there. That scares men off, even when they’re seriously interested in a woman. A far better response, after only a few dates, would be something like, “I’m flattered you’re that attracted to me; I really dig you, too. It’s kind of early though. Why don’t we see where things go? I’d like our first time to be really special.” Make the words fit into your own mouth, but that idea. Or use a variation of the “rationale” I used, and keep it short and sweet. Notice how I set forth my boundaries (”We need to be exclusive/monogamous before I will sleep with you”) without coming out and saying those words. I said what I said in a very playful tone of voice. You should, too. Don’t turn “Wow, do I ever want to take you to bed and ravish you” into an excuse for finding out a man’s intentions. Just smile and enjoy it and tell him how flattered you are, while still laying out your own boundaries. Like Evan says, give the guy hope! That’s what will keep him hooked, not easy sex.

   Sherry Argov in her book “Why Men Love Bitches” talks about sex during courtship in terms of “giving it up one Jujube at a time.” Very similar to Evan’s talking about “bases.” It sounds like what you really need are “what to say when” ideas. Be light and witty and a little mysterious, and give the guy something to look forward to in the future, without giving away more than you’re comfortable with. And without “offering” to nail down your relationship right then and there. That’s the man’s job, Colette. It’s your job to consider whether you like the parameters he sets over time and either accept or reject them and move on. It is not our job as women to drive the relationship, and I think maybe that’s the source of your bad luck, if this tends to be a pattern for you.

5. zann Aug 21st 2008 at 11:54 am 5

   Well said, LOVING ANNIE!!!!

   Just one more thing that has not been mentioned in this debate…maybe because it’s obvious, but…. having him claim he is ready for commitment STILL doesn’t guarantee — “post-coital” that he actually is. In other words, he can still hide his true stripes, tell you he is ready to make that leap, and still be gone before the breakfast dishes are washed. I don’t mean to sound like the Grim Reaper, but unfortunately, there are no guarantees any way you look at it. That said, though, I have to keep believing, as Evan says, that if a woman (and not just “pretty” women) determines her personal healthy boundaries and learns to communicate them in a non-rigid, non-frigid, encouraging way, she’ll eventually get to a man of substance and integrity, who is also hot. Just plan to do a lot of frog kissing first.

6. Cathouse Teri Aug 21st 2008 at 12:00 pm 6

   Evan, you make some great points.

   But I don’t think there is ever anything wrong with saying, “I am just not ready for sex.” There are many, many, many, many men who (although they may want sex) are willing to wait and see where it goes. I do not think a woman (or man, for that matter) should have to explain their reasons for wanting to wait, either.

   Believe me, if a man is put off by the fact that you open up and say, “Hey, I wanna wait,” then he is nothing like ready to be open to understanding where you may be coming from, relationally. And that makes him NOT a candidate for a future.

   I think this is a great way to weed out the frogs. They hop along on their merry way and find sex with some other hot girl and whateverthehell else they are looking for.

   Stick to your guns, babe. I guarantee a prince of a man will come along at some point.

7. Cleo Aug 21st 2008 at 12:09 pm 7

   “It sounds like in response to “Let’s get intimate” you initiated a big relationship talk (which most men HATE), wanting to know where he stood right then and there. That scares men off, even when they’re seriously interested in a woman.”

   I fully agree. This is the part that set off alarms for me. It was way to early to say this to him. Oh well. Live and Learn.

8. Robert Aug 21st 2008 at 12:48 pm 8

   Annie, your views are noble, but way out of line with reality. Here’s the reality for guys(I’m paraphrasing the book title): She’s just not into you!

   Evan, your response as usual, was pretty close to the way I feel. In the relationships in my life that I had with women that were most long term and most meaningful to me, sex happened much sooner than the 9-10 dates that Annie referred to. Why? Because there was so much good energy in the air between us, that we couldn’t stay apart. I’m not referring to just sexual energy. I’m talking about a strong emotional connection.

   I once dated a lady that I sincerely liked a lot. She wasn’t ready to “go all the way” after 5-6 dates and countless hours on the phone together because she first wanted a commitment of monogamy from me. While I understood her sentiment, the discussion took some romantic breeze from my sail. I was really into this girl and I wanted our lovemaking to stem from romance and mutual, not from a contract.

   I thought that I was a good “risk” to her but she needed the verbal promise, which I wouldn’t give. Not because I wasn’t ready for it. I just thought that it was a foolish thing to say, knowing that if things didn’t work out for either of us, she’d run for the hills as fast as I would if I was the unhappy one.

   Ladies, do you want some guy to B.S. you and say what you want to hear in order to get laid or do you want emotional intimacy? I suspect the latter. Pinning him down to an agreement so early that YOU may not even want to live up to may or may not yield the results you want.

9. Honey Aug 21st 2008 at 01:40 pm 9

   If I were single, I think things would either fall into a “friends with benefits” category or a “monogamous-this-might-be-leading-somewhere” category. And which one it was would have to be clearly established before I’d hop in the sack.

   The BF and I had sex on our first date…on our second date (a day and a half later) we agreed to be exclusive. Like some others here said, we had so much good energy the sex was inevitable…but the energy was also so good that agreeing to be exclusive was easy.

10. JuJu Aug 21st 2008 at 02:08 pm 10

    Kris,

    right on, every point you made.

    Me? Well, I personally wouldn’t even consider committing to a man if I don’t know what he is like in bed. Why on earth should the guy?

    Listen to what Robert said, ladies. All this “prince” talk is a bit, shall we say, naive.

11. JuJu Aug 21st 2008 at 02:20 pm 11

    Oh, as for men being so much work, the guy who writes “your hot” is not worth my time or effort. Attempting to extract any semblance of an intelligent exchange out of that would be akin to juicing a stone.

    In other words, be very discriminate as to whom you choose to “work” on.

12. Kris Aug 21st 2008 at 03:56 pm 12

    Hi Juju,

    Thanks for the props.

    By, “work,” I just meant all the thinking women are told to do to phrase things correctly for the men…to be “playful,” encouraging, playing hard to get, mysterious, light…whatever. Most men who like me…I can just tell them what’s up and they’re cool with that. It’s a lot of work, otherwise, for something that probably won’t work, anyway…if it needs that much of a delicate touch. Phew. I’m tired just thinking about it.

    I would say to any men on this blog: feel free to ask questions of women for clarification. We might not have said it EXACTLY right! And then the two go their separate ways…what a shame! Que lastima!

    Bueno!

    Kris

13. Kris Aug 21st 2008 at 04:57 pm 13

    It sounds like, from reading the above, when it’s right he wants what you want, no matter, whether it’s right-away-sex or let’s-wait-sex. Which leads us back to the mythological: you just haven’t met the right one yet. Maybe it’s true. It would put Evan out a job, though! ;~)

    I still think she should call him. I live in a small enough town that inevitably you run into the person and you can say, “What’s up?” But in bigger towns, gotta p/u the phone. Do it! Do it! Now even I’m curious, after all this speculation.

    Kris

14. downtowngal Aug 21st 2008 at 05:33 pm 14

    “You may have felt that you were just speaking your mind and explaining your deep-seated reasons and ethics. Maybe all he heard was, “No. I don’t find you attractive.””

    c’mon, Evan, gimme a break. If he really felt that way he wouldn’t have stayed with her through the end of the next day.

    So what’s a girl to do - put out just to keep the guy if it doesn’t feel right to her?

    Collette clearly stated what she’s looking for - she didn’t say she was looking for him to totally commit to her right then or there, just that she wasn’t ready to sleep with him yet after ONLY 4 DATES. and she wasn’t playing any games, just being straight up.

    And maybe the guy realized he wasn’t ready for that type of committment at all - not from her nor from anyone else.

    That doesn’t mean Collette did anything wrong - only saved herself from future heartache. If she slept with him she would have gotten very attached and on an emotional roller coaster.
    And I’ll be you anything that this guy respects her as much as she respects herself. And a couple of years from now when he’s ready to settle down he’ll be kicking himself realizing what a schmo he was.

15. JuJu Aug 21st 2008 at 06:25 pm 15

    It’s a lot of work, otherwise, for something that probably won’t work, anyway…if it needs that much of a delicate touch.

    Exactly. I am with you on that. Which is why I don’t subscribe to any of the “seduction rules” so abundantly dispersed to women. If I can’t be myself with this person and, particularly, if we are on such different wavelengths that he can misunderstand / misinterpret me like that, then… well, it isn’t much of a relationship.

    As for commitment, whenever I hear people talking about that (what I perceive as prematurely), or this no sex before marriage thing we discussed here recently, I just itch to ask all involved: would you commit to a person if you didn’t know what s/he looked like? What their personality / worldview was like? Why exactly is this any different?

16. Ron Aug 21st 2008 at 06:43 pm 16

    I agree 100% with Loving Annie…and I’m a dude. Go figure.

    The right man will wait for the right girl. Unless something dramatic happened at that date at the farmer’s market, it’s obvious the guy 86′d you because he couldn’t get in your pants.

    Anyone with high self esteem would say, “his loss, not mine.” Good thing for you you didn’t have sex with him. Imagine how you would’ve felt if you did and never heard from him afterwards.

    The right guy will wait for you. Unfortunately, ordering the right guy or the right girl is not as easy as ordering out for a pizza delivery.

17. Ron Aug 21st 2008 at 06:50 pm 17

    I disagree STRONGLY with Kris.

    Don’t call this guy. It will be a big mistake. Move on. This guy has dumped you like cargo because you would not have sex with him on his terms.

    He’s driftwood. Move on. There are shitloads of quality people out there. You will lose all your personal power if you call this “man” up and ask him what happened.

    TRUST ME. If you meant everything to that “man,” HE would still be calling you.

18. just saying... Aug 21st 2008 at 06:51 pm 18

    Evan, it’s one thing to discuss how a woman gets her point across to a guy she’s emailing on line. It’s another when you’re talking about having sex with someone for the first time.

    this guy is only looking for sex.

    Collette, keep at it; you said you have no problem getting dates so you have plenty of opportunities to move on and find a guy who respects you for you.

19. Steve Aug 21st 2008 at 07:33 pm 19

    
    I feel like it’s a good thing that I made my feelings clear — he responded by showing his true intentions were not to have a relationship but to just get laid.
    

    Some people want both and may leave if they are not getting one need or another met.

20. Cute Redhead Aug 21st 2008 at 08:08 pm 20

    I think the answer is no. If you are a woman you cannot hold out on having sex with a man, especially if you are hot. It is your responsibility as a woman to take care of the sexual needs of a man if you hope to have a relationship with him. The sooner you can demonstrate that you are willing and able to take care of his sexual needs, the more likely it is that he will commit, if only for a short time, and maybe even love you enough to be exclusive, if only for short time. I’m not sure what the woman gets in return for this, but I’m sure that he will let her know what he is willing to offer her once they are committed. It isn’t really right to make deals for sex, so you can’t really expect anything in return for having sex with him — that’s a bit whorish. The most you can expect is the CHANCE that he will pick you out of all the women out there that he is sleeping with, wants to sleep with, or may someday meet and sleep with.

    Ahem. OF COURSE you can have sexual boundaries, and if the guys you meet don’t get it, their loss. You sound great, Collette, and like you have your head on straight. Hold out for the right guy and the right relationship, if that’s the way you want to do it.

21. bella Aug 21st 2008 at 08:50 pm 21

    A woman shouldn’t have to be a politician/motivational-speaker/nurturer/sex kitten all at once, just to get a guy to commit to her.

    I think what you said was fine. Don’t beat yourself up over it. We are not computers, prepared with perfect speeches every time we are in an intimate situation. You were perfectly human in your reaction, feeling somewhat vulnerable, and acting truthfully. You’re allowed to be yourself, express yourself, and say what you want. Guys certainly do it all the time.

    If what you said scared him off, then fine, he wasn’t right for you.

    There are absolutely men who are cool with waiting. And there are even some who will suggest it themselves. Patience is sexy. Willpower is sexier.

    And regarding those guys who write dumb emails that include the phrase, “ur hot, can i call u?” and so forth….. I disagree that a girl should write some catchy, come-hither reply to encourage him to write more.

    Puhleeze.

    That’s Neanderthal communication.

    If a man isn’t savvy enough to know how to talk to a woman from the get-go, why should she waste her time encouraging him to pursue her even more?

    The goal isn’t to get EVERY man to like you.

    The goal is to not give up until you find the RIGHT one.

22. hunter Aug 21st 2008 at 11:03 pm 22

    I like post #20 from Cute Red Head….

23. downtowngal Aug 22nd 2008 at 03:15 am 23

    Ron, you’re totally right. This guy is very immature. Collette told him that she didn’t feel comfortable sleeping with somone untill they’re both exclusive - gee, what’s wrong with that? especially in an age of rampant STD’s.

    CuteRedhead said “If you are a woman you cannot hold out on having sex with a man, especially if you are hot. It is your responsibility as a woman to take care of the sexual needs of a man if you hope to have a relationship with him” - WTF???????? Yeah, maybe after being in a committed relationship you both have to serve each other’s needs, but c’mon.

    Collette, it sounds like you have tons of options - keep at it. Maybe you’re choosing to date the wrong guys? Try paying attention to the more quiet guys, not these jerky types.

24. Jojo Aug 22nd 2008 at 03:19 am 24

    I agree with Loving Annie and DownTown. I think that there’s a high emphasis placed on sex which is so superficial. I don’t think that no sex means not interested. What’s wrong with getting to no someone before having sex. I don’t understand how people sleep together after a date or two. Yes, I do feel that sex is important, but I need to get to know the guy before becoming intimate.
    I was friends with a guy where we pretty much just spoke on the phone. We admitted that we liked each other and decided to go on a date for VD. For a second date, he invited me to his house to watch a sex show that we used to watch together on the phone; which came on at midnight. He lived an hour away and said he would pick me up around 9PM. I took this as a bootie call because he wasn’t planning dinner or anything during the day; especially that we were both off that day! I expressed my feelings and he was sorry I felt that way. We spoke two days later and I noticed a change in him. He made excuses about not wanting to ruin the friendship and then didn’t speak for like 10 days. I kept wondering what if I would have gone? I called him and we spoke and I told him that I wanted to go out and get to know each other in a personal level because talking on the phone is not the same as personal interaction. We went on a second date and fooled around, but no sex. A time after that, he invited me to his house and then we had sex. I asked him if we were exclusive and he said “well you’re not seeing anyone and I’m not.” He went away on a trip for 10 days and never heard from him, but called me when he returned and brought me back something. It took 10 days before I got to see him and when I did see him it was for a short time and basically just had sex with him. We even had a weekend trip planned in which he canceled. I started to feel like he wasn’t that interested because we would only see each other like once every 3 weeks. When I spoke to him and told him that I would like to spend more time with him, he said ” I do what I can.” I ended it and told him that I didn’t want a phone relationship.
    It looks like he was just interested in just sex with me and nothing more. My point is that when he saw I didn’t go to his house that first time, we lost contact. When he did finally sleep with me, it didn’t change anything. Like Evan says you’re dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t!
    Collette it looks like he wanted to get in your pants and if you had, he still might not have called or pulled away slowly!

25. Cat Aug 22nd 2008 at 03:40 am 25

    I havent been on this mailing list for too long, so I may have missed this. Where in the midst of all the talk about sex and intimacy, do you bring up the topic of safe sex? it seems to me that ALWAYS has to be in any discussion about sex. And if you are going to have it at all, with anyone, it assumes that the person you are discussing it with , is going to be honest. Trust and honesty develop over time, so what is even the question about waiting for sex? Don’t people care enough about themselves to safeguard their own lives and health?
    I went out with a guy recently who told me that every woman he ever dated had sex with him on the first date!! He seemed offended that I would even bring up the question of whether he had ever been tested. Can you talk about this? Cat

26. Damie Aug 22nd 2008 at 05:41 am 26

    My husband made me wait months before he would have sex with me. He was scared and didn’t want to get burned. I, of course, thought he wasn’t really that into me. Now here we are almost 2 years later and I’m feeding out baby as I type this.

    I didn’t read through every single response, so maybe someone said this already, but women want sex too. If women stopped acting like they were doing guys some kind of favor giving them sex then maybe it wouldn’t be this big power struggle thing.

    Some guys don’t want to continue with a relationship unless they know it’s going to be physical. Why? Because it feels good and that’s one of the reasons people get in relationships. You can’t deny that. It might have been better to talk about your sex boundaries before you’re in a room half naked getting all close. Maybe he didn’t hear “I’m not attracted to you.” Maybe he heard, “small boner.”

27. Kris Aug 22nd 2008 at 06:13 am 27

    Cute Redhead indicates she was *kidding* in her first paragraph when she starts the next one with, “Ahem.” Catch the subtleties.

    So much speculation going on about this man’s intentions and thoughts which, in fact, only he knows. It seems filtered by stories of some who have dated some cads. We don’t really know anything about this guy, and if there were only 4 dates, the writer also knows just a bit. Personally I have had MEN ask to wait and one even say to me, “I would have liked to have known you better first,” after our premiere. They are not all about getting some right off the bat.

    What matters is what she does now, and she has lots of advice. Colette, OF COURSE you didn’t do anything, “wrong.” If you really want to know what happened this man is the only one who can tell you. Otherwise it’s just a guess. If this happens to you repeatedly, the feedback might be worth it. But, don’t give up…at some point you’ll meet someone who gets YOU, and this is the point of dating!

    Good luck,

    Kris

28. vino Aug 22nd 2008 at 06:17 am 28

    Interesting posts.

    Am I the only one besides Cute Redhead who noticed this was a bartering transaction? (If you give me commitment, I may give you sex)

    If he doesn’t want to spend his relationship negotiating for sex, he’s absolutely right to move on.

    Also, Collette wants to put her preconditions on sex and in general, the relationship. I don’t say she is right or wrong for doing so and it may be perfectly right for HER, but I find it interesting that so many posters assume her guy is a cad or jerk or immature for not wanting to accede to HER preconditions. I don’t know that he’s a cad or jerk any more that Collette is a controlling egoist for wanting to control the relationship & parcel out sex on her terms… See how it can go both ways? Or is it only that “must make men commit and also to our ground rules before sex” is the only acceptable paradigm? Maybe there’s plenty of room for other ways of viewing relationships without the hate & name calling, no?

    Cute Redhead’s #20 was spot on. It looks like Collette wants to set all the ground rules for the, or any, relationship because she’s hot (or thinks she is), and therefore guys should wait and kowtow to her ground rules. In return, she may dole out sex. Right minded guys who don’t want to deal with that should, as this guy did, leave. Smacks of hubris. I bet this turned him away, at least in part.

    Fact -the more preconditions before sex, the more likely it is he’ll look someplace else for fewer (or none) preconditions. There’s a large market of women out there who won’t barter in such a fashion. That’s cold, but it is the reality. In effect, her guy had other choices, and preferred to exercise them.

    Besides, if Collette were really ‘into him’ all of this wouldn’t have occurred…she would’ve happily done the horizontal mambo (or kneeling rhumba, or…?) for that matter

29. Lisa Aug 22nd 2008 at 06:44 am 29

    Cat

    I have had lots of dates, and I NEVER slept with any of them on the first date. That guy was totally bs’ing you or he goes out with alot of sleazy women.

    I agree with Loving Annie, Downtown, and Ron on this subject.
    Cute Readhead…WTF?????? You are warped!

30. JuJu Aug 22nd 2008 at 07:01 am 30

    Cute Redhead is the only one on here in touch with reality.

    The big disconnect between men and women is that men are able to just enjoy the moment, while women think of any relationship not leading to [their preferred form of commitment] as a waste of their time.

31. JuJu Aug 22nd 2008 at 07:44 am 31

    And I thought Cute Redhead was just placating the LW in her second paragraph. Go figure.

    In any case, a commitment will stem from a mutual desire to be together, not from talking about it or demanding it.

32. hunter Aug 22nd 2008 at 07:52 am 32

    Men don’t always have to get in, sometimes, a hand job will suffice….

33. hunter Aug 22nd 2008 at 08:10 am 33

    …LOL!…give him a hand job!

34. Jojo Aug 22nd 2008 at 08:12 am 34

    “Am I the only one besides Cute Redhead who noticed this was a bartering transaction? (If you give me commitment, I may give you sex)”
    I don’t think sex should be used to negotiate commitment, but poeple don’t want to run the risk of having sex soon and then the guy bailing. People are not comfortable having sex so soon in a relationship. I’m not saying that the guy should wait months for you, but I do think that if there was genuine interest on his part, at least two months is a reasonable time for him to wait; and of course, communication is important.
    It’s not fair to label the guy as a jerk, but I think we can assume that he was not emotionally invested. I don’t think that 4 dates should warrent the guy to disappear because she didn’t sleep with him. Isn’t it obvious what his intentions were?

35. cinnamon Aug 22nd 2008 at 10:04 am 35

    Colette,
    I would suggest you try to look at this situation from a wider perspective. I understand from your post you were interested in this guy enough to want a long-term relationship with him.
    In a long-term relationship, you would have hundreds of situations along the way when you and him would have different needs, attitudes, ways of doing things (you shy from risk, he is risk-taking; you are more organised, he is more spontanious, you get me?)
    The issues around sex were just the first one in your case.

    Can you imagine each one of such situations being solved the way this one was?

36. starthrower68 Aug 22nd 2008 at 02:34 pm 36

    Dating is a man’s world, no doubt about it.

37. Cute Redhead Aug 22nd 2008 at 02:42 pm 37

    Um…has anyone on here ever heard of sarcasm???? Did anyone besides the one poster who mentioned it read my “Ahem” paragraph?

    But seriously — you guys really believe that crap I wrote in the first paragraph? And you think I meant that truthfully? But more to the point, what is wrong with you that you think a woman can’t have her own sexual standards and boundaries?

    Hard to imagine that that’s working for any of you.

38. Michael Ejercito Aug 22nd 2008 at 03:08 pm 38

    There is nothing wrong with people setting commitment as a precondition for sex. After all, sez is a big deal for almost everyone and most people prefer to share it with someone they are at least familiar with.

39. Lili Aug 22nd 2008 at 03:23 pm 39

    My point is here

    “http://www.livescience.com/health/060209_love_altruism.html”

    A man like that showed that he was looking for - sex - so he wasn’t really looking for her best interests but his own pleasure. How good a relationship it would have been, had she gone forward with as he had wanted?

    He did her a favour - she is free to find someone who looks for her best interest to be as important as his own is (therefore the relationship will be happier too).

40. hunter Aug 22nd 2008 at 03:29 pm 40

    To cute red head on post # 37,

    You didn’t mean everything you said in the first paragraph? AAAhhhhh, Bummer…..LOL!….

41. hunter Aug 22nd 2008 at 03:33 pm 41

    A woman doesn’t have to be a “good girl” until the right man comes along. She can do what ever she wants to do, just do it gracefully, ’cause men are watching…..

42. JuJu Aug 22nd 2008 at 04:44 pm 42

    Well, CR, it really is a shame, but your sarcasm turned out to be right on the mark. Yes, indeed, the most anyone can -ever- hope for is a chance of things working out (hope for, not count on). There are no guarantees; at any stage of the relationship, I might add.

    Look, people, Evan constantly says this, and I apparently have to reiterate: this is reality. You don’t have to like it, you can resist it with all your might, but this is how it is. Like I said before, just listen to what the men here are saying (Ron doesn’t count, for several reasons).

43. starthrower68 Aug 22nd 2008 at 05:08 pm 43

    I agree with you, JuJu….that’s why I’m back in school working on my education. As Merlin told a would-be King Arthur, “when you’re blue, learn something. Learning never fails!”

44. cinnamon Aug 22nd 2008 at 10:44 pm 44

    Juju,
    “Yes, indeed, the most anyone can -ever- hope for is a chance of things working out (hope for, not count on). There are no guarantees; at any stage of the relationship”.

    Sure, however many people who are in happy long-term relationships claim that a good relationship requires a lot of work ( and communication, good will, empathy and so on, I might add). From this perspective, pairing up with a “my way or the high way” person, significantly reduces your chance of success.

45. Cute Redhead Aug 22nd 2008 at 11:29 pm 45

    Well, JuJu–maybe you have to listen to what others are saying. Not everyone shares the same beliefs about sex and sexual activity. There is room for all in this world. If you want nsa sex — go right ahead. If you want committed sex — go right ahead. Not all men are all one way. Not all women are all one way. There are plenty of fish in the sea, enough variations on the sex/commitment theme to go around. Collette can certainly find a guy who wants to wait and she doesn’t have to compromise her standards to find one. Her problem is that she’s having trouble finding a guy who wants to wait. None of us can say why — maybe she likes being the coquette and is sending out the wrong message. Maybe she hangs out with people who have different values from hers and these are the only types of guys she meets. Maybe she’s had a string of bad luck. Or maybe she’s already met the guy who is waiting for the moment to be right for both of them.

46. downtowngal Aug 23rd 2008 at 04:21 am 46

    CuteReadhead (#37) - good one! Interesting to see how people reacted to your first post.

    I just can’t believe we’re having this discussion, particularly in an age of epidemic STD’s. Discussing expectations about sex is a mature, responsible thing to do. And advising against it is reckless and irresponsible. Doesn’t sound as if this guy was on the same page, so it’s just as well.

    Evan your advice is doing a great disservice.

47. Mo' Aug 23rd 2008 at 05:51 am 47

    Sounds as if Collette’s intentions were noble, and that perhaps something got “lost in translation”.

    Without jumping inside the dude’s head, and making the leap of faith that he was not just out for sex, I would suggest that maybe one of three things happened here:

    1. He had a bad past experience with another girl who said she wanted to wait, and it was just a smokescreen by her to avoid getting physical. In the dating world, there are women who want to be taken out on weekends, but who hate the prospect of getting physical with the guys who are putting the time in with them. I know that the majority of women aren’t like this, but if you’re a single guy who has dated for any length of time, it is impossible to not run into them. The attitude of such women is “This guy wants to take me out to restaurants and clubs, and I’m gonna let him, but I don’t want to do anything with him.” Perhaps this guy had an experience like that in his past, and if he did, I can promise you that he had no intention of repeating it. If this is the case, then it’s regrettable that it happened this way, but not necessarily surprising.

    2. He endured a past relationship where the girl placed all kinds of demands on him for any kind of physical contact. Again, I know not all women are like this, but if you have dated for any length of time, it’s impossible to not run into women who are like this. It’s hard to explain without making it sound like you’re being unreasonable, but it gets to be a drag if the person you’re with constantly needs material things or to be wined and dined before they will get physical. It’s even worse when she acts like she’s doing you a favor by doing it. I know emotional connection is not the same thing, but maybe he thought, “If she’s doing this on the 4th date, imagine what she’ll be like in a year.”

    3. His friends got in his ear. He probably talked to some of those same friends that Collette met about what had happened that night. And there’s a chance that the conversation went something like this:

    GUY: “She said she wants to make sure I am committed before we have sex.”
    FRIEND: “Oh man, did she work you!!”
    GUY: “What do you mean?”
    FRIEND: “She said that just so she could get the friend stuff out of you without having sex with you. You’re already in the friend zone and you’re never coming out!”
    GUY: “No no, she just wants to make sure that it’s serious.”
    FRIEND: “Well, you want it to be serious too, but have you put the brakes on her in any way?”

    I obviously can’t say that this is what happened for sure, but I can say that I had an experience similar to this, and that I got advice along these lines. (Luckily for me, I ignored it and I turned out to be right.) Still, it cast a shadow of doubt on me for a little while, and that’s something that will cause most men to up and leave.

    I honestly think something was just lost in translation in this case. She said one thing, he heard another. It happens. Move on to the next one: there are plenty.

48. JuJu Aug 23rd 2008 at 06:56 am 48

    What makes some people think that in this age STD’s are more common than, say, during the Middle Ages?

49. Ron Aug 23rd 2008 at 12:24 pm 49

    JuJu - Here’s a suggestion - instead of slamming people on this thread, get educated.

    Incredible. Call the Center of Disease Control in Atlanta and get the facts on the increased rate of STDs.

    FYI, over 20% of young women have herpes in NYC. It is projected to be 25% in the not-to-distant future.

    Now perhaps you might understand why some people like the letter writter won’t hop in the sack without veting potential sexual partners. It’s people with your viewpoints that make the STD world go round.

50. JuJu Aug 23rd 2008 at 02:31 pm 50

    People like me?
    LOL

    But I am clean.

    Whatever, this isn’t the level of argument I’d be interested in participating in. You haven’t addressed (or, it seems, even understood) a single point I made.

51. Cute Redhead Aug 23rd 2008 at 03:03 pm 51

    I always get the idea when I read this blog that some men assume sexual desire to be the exclusive province of men, and that because women got the stuff that men want (and women have no sexual desires that need satisfying), they hold all the cards and are using them to manipulate the men. Is this an accurate summation of the discussion here? So that a women who wants to wait is doing it to get as much as she can out of the guy by flaunting her feelingless privates — that’s her assumed motivation. Right or wrong here?

52. Ron Aug 23rd 2008 at 03:22 pm 52

    I rest my case. You couldn’t even see my point in my post.

    Most people are not ignorant of the fact that STDs are on the rise.

    If sex did not have any potential downside, Colette would have banged the guy from here to Broadway. Fortunately for her, she’s dodged a bullet (pun intended) with this guy.

53. JuJu Aug 23rd 2008 at 07:59 pm 53

    All right, let’s dissect what Cute Redhead wrote (albeit in jest), sentence by sentence.

    It is a man’s responsibility to satisfy my sexual needs if he wants to be in a relationship with me. If he doesn’t satisfy them, I’ll find someone who will. Sex is the primary reason people get involved in romantic relationships. I am not disputing the existence or downplaying the importance of whatever other needs we all may have (including one for companionship), but those can be usually met through other means.

    Whatever feelings I may or may not develop as a consequence works exactly the same way - i.e., it’s not a given. (And btw, from my observations of the world, it appears that in order for a man to want to commit himself to someone, it’s important for him to feel head over heels in love with that person. You are getting the chronological order of this?)

    As for what women get in return (and this is the phrase that should have originally tipped me off): well, what do you mean what do you get in return? You get the sex and the companionship (if only temporarily, but then, almost anything is) of a man you like and find attractive.

    The most a man can expect in return for having sex with me is the chance that I’ll pick him over the others. (This doesn’t mean others I am also currently sleeping with, because I personally don’t get physical with more than one person at a time (I don’t even kiss on the first dates for that reason). It means, of all my other possible options.) This really works both ways.

    I am stating all this being just as susceptible to the effects of oxytocin as any other woman.

    Now, why I said that Ron’s protests in this case don’t count:

    1) There is no evidence that the guy in the letter is a cad who only wanted to get into her pants. For instance, I see no incentive for him to have introduced the girl to his friends if he were never seriously interested in her. And the fact that he did end up not only spending the night but also the next day with her also demonstrates, I think, that he did care (he could have just as well taken or sent her home that same evening).

    2) No one can mean EVERYTHING to a person after four dates, and anyone who claimed that would be lying.

    3) The “personal power” argument shows such a lack of maturity and enlightenment that it is difficult to take it seriously. Besides, this is a normal, decent (albeit non-confrontational) person we are talking about, who, I bet, would react adequately.

    Lastly, venereal diseases would be a universal concern and not just that of women. The reason women try to hold off on sex is the above-mentioned hormone - they just get too attached (not in 100% of the cases, but often enough to experience considerable heartache by age 31).

    As for what I kept saying (lately, in every topic, it seems) about the necessity of having sex BEFORE considering commitment - it really has nothing to do with nsa sex (nor am I personally cut out for it). It’s just that, you think that if you like a guy, are excited to have met such a quality individual, and can actually see yourself with him, the sex will automatically be good, or at least acceptable? If you are counting on that, then for your sake I really hope you’ll never be disappointed. I, otoh, had an experience dissuade me of that.

54. cinnamon Aug 24th 2008 at 11:29 am 54

    “It is a man’s responsibility to satisfy my sexual needs if he wants to be in a relationship with me. If he doesn’t satisfy them, I’ll find someone who will.”

    Oh really????
    Tomorrow your guy may be out for a car crash and unable to move his little finger for the next 12 months. Good to know what you would do.

55. cinnamon Aug 24th 2008 at 11:40 am 55

    oh, and another interesting one:

    “The reason women try to hold off on sex is the above-mentioned hormone - they just get too attached”.

    Juju, are you familiar with any national (or maybe international?) norms on how attached a woman should feel after having sex with a man? Or is the “TOO attached” evaluation just a reflection of your own level of emotional attachment?

56. JuJu Aug 24th 2008 at 12:03 pm 56

    cinnamon,

    why the hostility?

    There are no norms, obviously - sex just seems to affect women more than men.

57. JuJu Aug 24th 2008 at 12:08 pm 57

    As for disability - I don’t know how I’ll react, honestly. I can only hope for the best.

    There was a huge discussion of this recently on the Carolyn Has board, and the following woman (who spent 20 years taking care of her husband) said it much better than I possibly could (being much younger, for one, and having not had the experience):

    “Caring for an elderly relative, caring for a child - these are not really the same. When the person that needs care is a spouse, there is the added burden of doing *without* all that one has assumed marriage would provide. Sex, yes, but also companionship, and someone to share the physical and financial load of your lives.”

58. JuJu Aug 24th 2008 at 12:08 pm 58

    Carolyn Hax, sorry.

59. cinnamon Aug 24th 2008 at 12:11 pm 59

    Juju,
    Just to make sure, this is not meant as any personal attack. People have different attitudes towards sex and relationships and there are no absolute truths.

60. schlockdoc Aug 25th 2008 at 07:14 pm 60

    I think the one thing the original poster did wrong was [i]go home with the guy.[/i]

    If you’re not planning to have sex, don’t stay the night (vacations and other practical residential necessities excepted, of course).

    Sleeping over is code for sex. Sleeping over but refusing sex is a tease (or can easily be perceived that way by the male mind). Nobody wants to date a tease.

61. vino Aug 25th 2008 at 08:32 pm 61

    Re: CR’s #51….

    Not picking an argument, but challenging assumptions.

    “I always get the idea . . . some men assume sexual desire to be the exclusive province of men . . ., women got the stuff that men want . . . they hold all the cards and are using them to manipulate the men. Is this an accurate summation of the discussion here?”

    - I’d say that isn’t accurate. However, Collette is using her sexuality as a bargaining chip to secure, nay, demand commitment. On HER terms, I might add. There’s only a manipulation if the guy allows it. Collete’s guy didn’t. Good for him.

    “So that a women who wants to wait is doing it to get as much as she can out of the guy by flaunting her feelingless privates — that’s her assumed motivation. Right or wrong here?”

    - I’d say that’s YOUR characterization of the situation. A wrong one, I might add. Whether or not women in general have feelings in this context is irrelevant, particularly when one bargains their sexuality like it’s on ebay. She (and others who do) do it to get something, though. Whether it is commitment, fealty, or a new Louis Vuitton bag, for example. In this case, it’s the 1st 2 things, methinks. Once a barter is in the offing, it must be analyzed remorselessly & vigorously, without the cloud of ‘feelings’ impairing vision.

    As for the Cinn-JuJu exchange, which I find fascinating… I think it’s another case of utopia v. fugly realities. Funny, b/c I agree with both of ‘em.

62. cinnamon Aug 25th 2008 at 10:45 pm 62

    vino,
    As I see it, there is absolutely nothing in Colette’s post that would indicate that she is using sex to bargain for anything.
    She seems like a grown up, emotionally healthy woman who sees sex as a part of a monogamous relationship and not a Friday night fun activity. The guy probably had a different outlook on life and it’s better for her that he left now then later.
    Colette had the guts to say that she was attracted to him and how see saw sex, the only thing the guy did was to shut the door and leave without any explanation.
    And while you apparently think that his commitment is something so precious that she might even think of bargaining about it, I say a commitment from a guy who shuts the door and leaves each time she doesn’t act the way he expected would soon turn into a life-time sentence.
    Utopia? Maybe. For me a guy who doesn’t care for how I feel and has a “I get what I want, when I want and how I want” attitiude towards sex (or anything else, for that matter) is someone to be avoided.

63. downtowngal Aug 26th 2008 at 03:16 am 63

    Mo’ (#57), interesting insight. If this guy was acting/thinking according to one of your examples, it only demonstrates that he’s not ready for the same level of commitment as Colette and it’s just as well the he didn’t call.

    It also demonstrates that sometimes we attract who we THINK we see. If a guy thinks that ‘all women are golddiggers’, based on one or two bad experiences, well, guess what? he’ll view all women that way and treat them accordingly, with a sense of distrust.

    You can say the same thing for women who say ‘all guys are jerks’.

    I’m getting off topic here, but the bottom line is that if you’re looking for something in a relationship, set boundaries for yourself and don’t settle. And live in the moment, don’t assume that the next one is going to act like the last one.

64. Jojo Aug 26th 2008 at 05:50 am 64

    I agree with Schlockdoc! If Colette was not ready to have sex, she should have said that to him before going to his apartment!

65. cinnamon Aug 26th 2008 at 08:21 am 65

    Jojo,
    And maybe she did tell him she wasn’t ready to have sex, but he still wanted to go to her appartment and said he would not insist, so she made him a bed on the sofa in order not to make him think she was a tease, but he didn’t call anyway? Who knows?
    This happens, too. To plenty of women.
    Bottom line is he didn’t call.

66. Jojo Aug 26th 2008 at 09:19 am 66

    Cinnamon- I’m not justifying what he did! From my previous comments you will see that it seems clear what his intentions were. All ‘m saying is before sleeping in a guys house, you should make it clear what you will and will not do. If the guy agrees, then that’s really on him. Colette says she went back to his place and then tells him and so they just cuddled. Again, I don’t agree with his actions; I’m simply advising women to make there boundaries clear before sleeping at some guys house!

67. Lance Aug 26th 2008 at 10:55 am 67

    Wow, Evan, that’s some sharp stuff there.

    I read about half the comments and scanned the rest, but I think there’s a huge component everyone has missed. Sex is PART of the relationship…a person’s sexual values are of tremendous importance to the overall relationship. Does the person like it fast or slow? Does the person like oral or hate it? How often and how much sexual energy does she bring to the table? An extension of those sexual values is the amount of affection the partner can give (and receive) and yes, how does that person make me feel, which Evan and others talked about. Does she make me feel sexy and desired, or unattractive and dull?

    I could never commit to a relationship without FIRST having sex with the girl, because that’s the only way you’ll truly know what her values are. I think it’s absurd to even consider committing without first going on the test drive. Only after a night of hot (or not) sex would I truly know that we’re good LTR partners.

    The guy did the right thing by removing himself from the picture, but he douched it up by not explaining to her why.

    If I had to give advice to Colette, it would be that she needs to at least go to third base, consider having sex BEFORE pressuring the guy to commit, and communicate her values from the get-go.

68. cinnamon Aug 26th 2008 at 01:44 pm 68

    Lance,
    Lucky you. I suspect the girls you’re getting have been test driven by many potential users, so you must be getting them as demos at considerable discount

69. Honey Aug 26th 2008 at 02:53 pm 69

    Cinnamon, what does it matter how many people someone has slept with? It seems like searching for a LTR is about finding someone with similar values–you don’t have to judge the other person’s values, only determine whether they’re compatible with yours.

    The BF and I had determined that we would be monogamous while sleeping together (largely for safety reasons), but we didn’t consider ourselves an official couple for three or four months, despite sleeping together on the first date. I think that type of arrangement is workable from a safety perspective (and values perspective) without anyone having to sign in blood before they know if they’re physically/sexually compatible.

    I don’t know if that’s what Lance meant, or if it’s what Collette meant, either. It’s entirely possible that we’re misinterpreting the level of “committment” she was asking him for–she didn’t necessarily want a marriage proposal, but more of a “temporary halt” while they figured out what was going on with them.

70. Tyler Aug 26th 2008 at 03:10 pm 70

    I find this post interesting and I have a number of questions that I would love for anyone to answer.

    1. Why was the guy considered a jerk because he wouldn’t commit to her? He wasn’t mean; he didn’t try to change her mind; he didn’t kick her out. She asked for what she wanted and he let her know that he wasn’t willing to give her that. Why in the world does that make him a jerk or an assclown? In my mind, neither one of them did anything wrong.

    2. Why didn’t she call him? At what point in dating can a woman initiate a phone call? It seems to me that if they spent all that time together, she could have called him — not to talk about the “relationship,]” per se, but just to say hi or I had fun last night. Perhaps he thought that because he wouldn’t commit on the spot that SHE was no longer interested in him.

    It has been my experience that in the dating world, misunderstandings and misinterpretations run rampant. Some behavior has one obvious interpretation, but others don’t. Yet for some reason, we always want to go with the worst explanation….the one that makes the guy a jerk or the woman a bitch.

    Some people on this site have said that people can have different views and values, and while people do indeed have different views and values, I get a strong impressions that most people here think there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything — their way of course is usually right or better or more noble. Other views are not respected and barely tolerated. For example, there is a very strong bias that sex is really only right in the context of a caring relationship, but sex just for the fun of it is somehow wrong or bad or at the very least less noble. Isn’t that why men who only want sex seem to be so hated? If the guy is upfront about his intensions (and many are), why is that bad?

    Finally, I know most people aren’t going to agree with me, but given how many people — both men and women– cheat — I just have to wonder if people really want to be monogamous. Is monogamy a social construct that still serves us as a society? I think as internet dating become more popular, there are going to be fewer and fewer people willing to settle for just one person.

71. cinnamon Aug 26th 2008 at 03:51 pm 71

    Honey,
    “It’s entirely possible that we’re misinterpreting the level of “committment” she was asking him for–she didn’t necessarily want a marriage proposal, but more of a “temporary halt” while they figured out what was going on with them”.

    That’s a question which I meant to raise at some point in this discussion and forgot.
    Personally, I cannot imagine any other type of “commitment” on the 4th date then a “temporary halt” and do not interpret Colette’s request as anything else than asking for being monogamous while they were sleeping together. I do not see any other options exactly for safety reasons.

    Personally, I have never seen myself in a “no sex before marriage” arrangement, though I have respect for people who do. What astonishes me is men who seem to make a “fast forward” in their minds and then somehow project this on the women they meet. I’m not saying this is the case with respect to Colette’s guy, but I have myself stumbled on such phenomenon at least once.

72. Lance Aug 26th 2008 at 03:51 pm 72

    @Cinnamon: I have no problem with highly experienced women, and in fact I prefer it. These women are usually very in touch with their sexual side and compatible with my values. Sluts? I love’em!!

    @Tyler: You’ve got some great points in there. To point #1, the guy was pretty cool the whole time…his only possible mistake was not taking the time/energy to TELL her he wasn’t interested. Instead, he flaked, which is a douchey move, but a fairly mild mistake in my book.

    Another good point you made, why didn’t she just contact him and ask what was the matter? I didn’t see any where in her message that she put forth effort to maintain the connection or find out if something was wrong. At least part of that is her responsibility.

    Anyway, Evan gave great advice on this one. I wish women would stop waiting for a guy to commit to a relationship before giving him the “gift” of her sex, it’s totally ridiculous.

73. hunter Aug 26th 2008 at 04:34 pm 73

    on post #68

    A demo at a considerable discount? Every mans fantasy!….Where are they?……LOL!………

74. downtowngal Aug 26th 2008 at 04:48 pm 74

    Tyler we don’t even know if he was willing to commit to her. Or if he’s a jerk. Based on what Collette is saying, it sounded as if she was up front, but he didn’t let her know, instead he sent her mix signals. So based on this, many on this board - men & women alike - determined that it sounds as if he was only interested in having sex.

    And it’s not cool her to follow up with him, especially in this instance. What good would it do? Collette would only be blown off again.If the guy really wanted to contact her he already would have.

75. Tyler Aug 26th 2008 at 05:40 pm 75

    Downtowngal,

    I guess I don’t see that he sent mixed signals — she asked him to committ and she said he didn’t say anything. In my mind, that means no or at least not yet. There were a number of people who did say he was a jerk because all he wanted was sex. And my question is even if all a man wants is sex, if he is honest about it, why is he a jerk or an asshole.

    I wasn’t suggesting that she follow up with him 4 weeks later or now. I was asking after one or two days went by, why couldn’t she call him and say hi? As I said, perhaps he needed some reassurance that she was still interested even if he wasn’t ready to commit. I am only throwing that out because I think women (myself included) tend to forget that men actually can feel vulnerable and unsure. I met a guy on the internet and we had nice conversations. But something happened and we never went out. Long story short, I was adhering to the ‘if he is really interested, he will do all the work’ tenet of dating. In a very candid conversation, he told me that he was just tired of chasing women only to be rebuffed or worse. Just once, he wished a woman would really show him the SHE like him. I’m sure some women will think he just needed to man up and he’s probably not alpha enough for most women here. But for me, that was the first time I really understood that this dating thing is hard on guys too. So, all I am saying is that maybe, just maybe, SHE needed to reach out to him first and let him know that she still liked him. Of course, everyone wants to avoid reaching out because we don’t want to give up our “power.” What power are we giving up exactly? The power to be human and vulnerable and real? Perhaps we need to be more courageous and be willing to say even though I’m not sure how you feel about me, I like you. If you don’t feel the same way, no hard feelings. I’ll just move on. Instead, we always want the other person to admit they like us first — so that we have more power. Well, I bet that there are a lot of really powerful people who are alone.

76. Cute Redhead Aug 26th 2008 at 05:41 pm 76

    Vino, post #61. I didn’t say that’s what I believed,