Mar06
My Girlfriend Broke Up With Me. I Slept With Someone Else. Have I Done Something Wrong?
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I dated my ex for 16 months. We broke up with no hints of getting back together. 2 weeks later I had a one night stand with someone I don’t know. 1 week later, my ex calls and indicates we should try to get back together. In subsequent discussions, she asks me if I had slept with anyone. Being an honest man, I reluctantly told her yes. She is furious and hurt and is accusing me of cheating and lying to her. I want to be with her, never wanted to be without her (she pushed the breakup), and am disappointed that I hurt her, BUT, do not feel like I cheated or lied. Where do I go from here? Lay low and see if time helps or go all in again and try to win her over again?
Thanks.
Brian
Dear Brian,
You did nothing wrong.
You were broken up.
You had no hints of getting back together.
You did what pretty much any guy would do after a sixteen month relationship.
That doesn’t mean you’re out of the woods yet, but it does mean you’re technically “right”. The problem is that having truth and logic on your side matters very little when discussing emotional issues. This, by the way, is the main reason that I blog. I try to inject a little male logic into the largely feminine realm of relationship discussions. (This does NOT mean women are illogical – I’m just making a generalization here). I don’t actively hope to change the world, but I do hope to observe the world AS IT IS, as opposed to how it SHOULD be.
She probably wanted you cry your eyes out for a few weeks, paralyzed, unable to imagine yourself in the presence of any other woman.
Your girlfriend is caught up in how it SHOULD be. After a long, serious relationship – one in which she still had feelings for you - she was clearly hoping for some dating moratorium. She probably wanted you cry your eyes out for a few weeks, paralyzed, unable to imagine yourself in the presence of any other woman. And then, when she came back to reconcile with her beloved, she was shocked to discover that you had drowned your sorrows in the cleavage of another woman during - GASP! – a meaningless one-night stand. The gall! The disrespect! Did your relationship just mean NOTHING?
It feels pretty ridiculous to type those last few lines because they make no logical sense. You were broken up. You did when men do when they’re single – look for other women. When my serious girlfriend dumped me in 2004, I left her house, red-eyed, drove ten minutes home, and reactivated my JDate account instantly. Would I want to be the first woman to date me after my heart had been shattered? Hell, no. But I certainly wasn’t going to repair my wounds by sitting at home by myself for a month….
Continued on next page >>Filed Under Sex & Relationship Advice
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Steve Mar 6th 2008 at 09:01 am 1
Brian;
You did nothing wrong and you have been 100% honest. You do not have any fact based reasons to justify feeling bad. YOU WERE TOLD IT WAS *OVER*.
Make those things CLEAR to your ex. Do not back peddle on that. However, do not belabor it. What is of important to you is being with her and her feelings. Let her know, with no doubts, that you feel that way. . Then back off and let her handle her own feelings. If she wants you back, congratulations. If she remains unsure for a long period of time let her know that you respect that and you will move on considering yourself single ( free ).
$Francisco Mar 6th 2008 at 09:59 am 2
Marc, great response. It’s refreshing to see another guy who understands how relationships work.
Brian, you didn’t do anything wrong but you did say that you want to be with her. Telling her that you had moved on would in no way help your situation. With relationships people need to realize when it’s a good time to “be right” and when its better to do “what works.” The two doesn’t always work well together and it will test your personal values but in the end what matters is which means more to you.
Brian Mar 6th 2008 at 10:29 am 3
Assuming you want to get back together with someone who totally pitched you, the answer is no. What she is asking is “within the relationship, were you faithful to me”. Just because she tried to change the dates to include the time she defined as outside the relationship, you acted in good faith during the relationship. There is nothing to be gained for either of you to talk about your activities. For you to raise the issue as she is just wanting to get back together will only push a very hot negative button for her and may block her willingness to commit.
Asking you if you have slept with someone else is just like asking you if what she is wearing makes her butt look too big–there is no acceptable honest answer. I see what you did while broken up as the same as the time before you were together–what you did romantically is none of her business and need not be disclosed. It is outside the relationship as she defined it.
What is your motivation to tell her about it? Getting a last dig in about being dumped? Getting her to bless your “transgression” (Remembering that most women in committed relationships HATE infidelity)? Satisfying the idea that “Honesty is the best policy”? If so, have you told her everything else in your life that would really make her mad?
Finally, from my own experience, I would be careful with getting back together with someone who totally broke up with me. She may have discovered she really missed you and was wrong to break up. Great! If she does it again, it begins to look like a nasty habit. I made the mistake of marrying a woman who did that and it was not something I would repeat.
Steve Mar 6th 2008 at 10:43 am 4
To wrap up, I want to offer a quote from Ramana Hamarshi, “Wanting to reform the world without discovering one’s true self is like trying to cover the world with leather to avoid the pain of walking on stones and thorns. It is much simpler to wear shoes.”
I first heard that quote at a meditation retreat back in the early 90s. It applies to so many situations. It is faster, less frustrating, more rational and more effective to look to what you can do to adjust yourself then demanding that the world change to suit you. That quote was worth the week of silence and sitting on the floor.
Justy Mar 6th 2008 at 11:07 am 5
Reminds me of an old episode of “Friends”…
No, Brian, I don’t think you did anything wrong, it’s just that she was expecting you to stay home and pine, at least for a little bit. I know if this happened to me, I would feel hurt. If I’d invested 16 months into a relationship, something went wrong enough to break us up, then practically overnight the man went off and slept with someone else, I’d probably wonder if he ever cared at all. No matter who initiated the breakup, there is a 16 month investment here.
Yes, I know men are wired differently, but I can understand that she would be hurt. However, he told her the truth, and that sets the relationship up for more trust in the future if they get back together.
Technically, you didn’t do anything wrong, but that doesn’t mean her feelings aren’t hurt. If you still care about her and the relationship can be repaired, give her a little while to see if she gets over it. If you don’t, move on.
Just my $0.02.
wildgingersnap Mar 6th 2008 at 11:22 am 6
Hey Brian, I’m a woman and I sympathize.
I can understand that your ex’s ego was bruised but being furious and accusing you of cheating/lying (huh!?) is certainly unreasonable and irrational. Wanting you to be so distraught that you couldn’t imagine yourself in the presence of another woman is some romantic ideal that just doesn’t jive with human nature.
If you want to get back together with her, here’s my advice:
Don’t apologize, justify or otherwise go on the defensive. Personally, I know when I’m being demanding or irrational and it’s kind of a test: if a guy stands strong, I gain respect for him.
Be confident in your belief that you didn’t do anything “wrong.” She has the right to feel hurt by your actions, but you did not “hurt her.” At this point, the best thing would be to express empathy and ask questions — try to find out where she’s coming from, what her expectations were, exactly why she’s feeling hurt…people are more interested in being understood than they are in being right.
Michael Ejercito Mar 6th 2008 at 11:52 am 7
Brian,
You two broke up, so you had no obligation to refrain from having sex with an unattached person. If she can not see that, find someone else.
Markus Mar 6th 2008 at 12:18 pm 8
EMK and Ginger are right. You did nothing wrong and if she keeps throwing it back in your face, walk. See what happens.
Selena Mar 6th 2008 at 12:43 pm 9
Brian what you did was neither cheating, nor lying. Unfortunately the technicality of that doesn’t make much of a difference. To your gf (ex-gf?) what you did is upsetting because it looks like you never really loved her if after a mere two weeks you were already out there ready to hook up with someone else. Instead of staying at home with the drapes shut, bawling your eyes out over a pint of Ben & Jerry’s, you were happily putting your penis inside another woman.
The two of you may get back together, but she is never going to forget that she was so easily replacable in this regard. You can expect this moment of “in the past” to come up from time to time, particularly whenever you have a tiff. You can expect her to have trust issues with you for some time to come. She may get over it, but on some level it will always be there. Mulitply this 10, 100 fold if your “one nighter” is someone you (or the two of you) could run into on a non-infrequent basis.
You might want to consider why you broke up in the first place, and if it’s really worth it to try again knowing all this.
Jennifer Mar 6th 2008 at 03:17 pm 10
I agree with all the posters- Brian was not wrong, but ex-gf is hurt and we can all understand her not liking his actions. My only quibble is with some of Evan’s advice
” You want a guy to tell you the truth about cheating? You better be prepared to forgive him and painfully accept his apology. Otherwise, you’re asking for him to lie to you.”
I can’t get down with that. I agree that you should be willing to hear him out, understand where he was coming from and why he cheated so you can make a determination on whether to forgive him or not. I agree you can’t tell him, up front, that he will never be forgiven for cheating and then expect him to tell you the truth (though one could hope; some people actually still do the ‘right’ thing). But i completely disagree that you should automatically be prepared to forgive him. Why would that be the default when you’ve been cheated on?
Evan Marc Katz Mar 6th 2008 at 03:45 pm 11
I didn’t really say it should be the default. Cheating is pretty much the most serious crime you can commit within a relationship.
All I said was that it makes no sense to confess to infidelity if you know that it won’t be forgiven. And to expect a confession is foolhardy.
Michele Mar 6th 2008 at 06:09 pm 12
Cheating. Gosh that can be so hurtful however Brian and his ex were NOT together when his “offense” took place. In my (ever so humble) opinion am unsure that his g/f has a leg to stand on. Cancel that unsure and I say I am POSITIVE that she has no recourse.
Furthermore some things are best left unknown when it comes to the cheating issue. I have cheated and have probably been cheated “on.” Did I admit to my behavior…NO. The relationships were on the rocks anyway.
What should be addressed is WHY the cheating took place. In Brian’s case he was a free man, so why not see another person. If I thought for one minute that some guy was going to hold cheating against me - when we were apart, no way would I see any future entanglements with him. Remember the cheating happened based on the problems that were within the relationship.
Lance Mar 6th 2008 at 06:13 pm 13
One reason Brian’s quasi ex-gf could be so upset was that he’s of the character of a man who would do a one-night stand. These aren’t the most glamorous things in the world (although I got no problem with them, and I don’t have an issue with Brian’s ONS). But, would she be less upset if he went out on a date? Seems innocuous. I think the timing is less important than the actual act. When you think ONS, you think crazy porno sex, extreme passion, highly physical, maybe much better sex than what Brian and his gf were having. Plus, she’s going to think he’s sleazy for the random hookup. I can see her getting upset by all that.
He could have defused by saying, “Yeah, I got wasted at a bar, had sex with a random chick and it was TERRIBLE. I had no emotional connection with her and I shouldn’t have gone there. Plus, it’s against my character to be hooking up randomly. I totally regretted it. I started thinking about you instantly and how good we are together.” No lies there.
Ron Mar 6th 2008 at 06:49 pm 14
Holy Crap Batman,
What a manipulative bitch that is you have for an ex.
My God, I’d throw her in a river with a 50 pound weight attached to her ankle.
If there is anyone who deserves the middle finger, it’s someone who breaks up with you, then accuses you of being a cheater.
Do yourself a favor and tell her to go “f” herself. Seriously.
Someone like that deserves to die alone.
Ron Mar 6th 2008 at 06:58 pm 15
I got a kick out of Evan’s story about the paranoid ex-girlfriend who demanded that he tell her if he ever cheated.
By definition, a cheater is someone who lacks integrity. You can say, yes, but what if you just cheated once, what if you were drunk, blah, blah, blah.
Point is, since cheaters aren’t the most honorable people, you can’t expect them to confess to it or ever admit! It would be out of character.
Like a famous relationship author said, “it never just happens…” That’s always the line the cheater gives you. “It just happened….”
I swear honey, we we just met, and BOOM, our clothes fell off!
starthrower Mar 6th 2008 at 08:00 pm 16
I-gotta-say-that-gf-has-no-culpability-here-and-I’m-a-female.
I-just-ended-a-relationship-and-I-said-in-no-uncertain-terms-it-was-over…I-don’t-expect-to-return-to-it-but-if-I-did-I-would-not-even-ask-him-the-question…I-would-just-assume-he-did-someone-else.
Am-I-terrible-for-embracing-the-advantages-of-being-single-and-unattached
Samantha Mar 6th 2008 at 08:07 pm 17
My boyfriend of two years cheated on me recently. He went out of town and when he came back, his friend showed me footage of him with two girls. I took the video and put it on YouTube, hoping that no one will ever want to date him. My boyfriend swore he didn’t cheat, until he saw himself on YouTube and realized that I knew the truth.
I also slept with the friend who showed me the video and we recorded the orgasm (just the audio!). I’m a DJ, so I have all the equipment in my room. Anyway, I mixed the sound of the orgasm into a song - which I also uploaded on my myspace page!
I’m not usually a mean person, but I guess it made me feel better, at least for a moment, to get back at him. Anyway, if anyone wants to see it, it’s at http://www.myspace.com/thehartlotsong.
I’m also going to start posting pictures of “cheaters” on my site, so send me pictures and I will get the word out for you!!!
starthrower Mar 6th 2008 at 08:10 pm 18
Sorry-I-meant-Brian-has-no-culpability….oy-it’s-been-a-long-day…
mrs. vee Mar 6th 2008 at 08:16 pm 19
“If you ever cheat on me, you’d better tell me. I do not tolerate cheaters and I will break up with you.”
LOL. Really, Ev? Your ex-girlfriend said THAT?
Well, she was perhaps a little ham-handed in the way she expressed the sentiment, but I can certainly say I’d also hope for a confession from my DH if he ever had a moment of weakness with another woman. And I couldn’t promise with any certainty to forgive or painfully accept anything from that point on. But I’d still want to know. Plus, expecting him to do so implies that I believe him to be fallible, but honorable.
Maybe a better way of putting it would have been, “If you ever make this sort of mistake with another woman, please be honest with me, and be prepared to face the music.”
Facing the music would be my inclination if I were the one who screwed up with another man, anyway. But whatever.
That’s not the point in the case of your original poster who did absolutely nothing wrong.
Anonymous Mar 6th 2008 at 09:15 pm 20
Ron- Before you go making such harsh accusations of this woman, perhaps you should read Selena’s post above. She really hit the nail on the head as to why this sort of thing bothers women. Yes, it was wrong of her to accuse him of cheating and lying, as neither of those things occurred; however, the accusations she made likely spawned from such feelings described in Selena’s post. I had a similar situation with my ex, granted we did not get back together/think of getting back together, nor did I accuse him of cheating. He slept with another woman one week after I ended our three year relationship (we were even engaged). I felt exactly what Selena felt and what Brian’s gf/ex is feeling, replaceable. This person who supposedly had such strong feelings for you can get it up so easily to go and sleep with another woman…to us, it seems as though the mourning period never existed. Note: Even if you are the dumper as opposed to the dumpee, you will still go through a similar mourning period, and you expect the same of the other person. Is it wrong to expect this? Absolutely, but since when were relationships merely based upon logic and devoid of feeling? You can’t deny someone their feelings, so if I were you, I would avoid making such harsh statements in the future. Especially since you are essentially making them of all females, so unless you want to die alone…
murray t. Mar 7th 2008 at 12:05 am 21
To Evan’s point on confessing, I guess the difference between a cheater and someone who just made a mistake is that the cheater sees telling the truth and self-preservation as two things that directly conflict with one another. Whereas the guy with integrity who just made a mistake sees telling the truth as essential to his self-preservation.
You gotta be able to look yourself in the mirror everyday, afterall. Asking your partner to tell the truth if s/he were to cheat - and to subsequently face the consequences - is not that outrageous or laughable a request.
I’d rather lose a partner I loved but know I treated her fairly than lie to her each day.
But that’s just me.
It also sounds to me like you and your ex- enjoyed antagonizing each other, Evan. Those kinds of relationships never last when built on that sort of foundation. You’ve both probably gone on to greener pastures by now.
m Mar 7th 2008 at 01:21 am 22
OP -
Did you cheat?
Arguably, no.
Did you lie?
I wasn’t there, so I really can’t tell.
Did you do something wrong?
If your 16-month (God, you men quantify relationships the way most women talk about babies. What’s wrong with OVER A YEAR? D*mn.) relationship was with a woman who thinks the way “most” women think —
YES.
If you do nothing else, PLEASE read Serena’s comment again @ #9.
If you care at all about your MORE THAN A YEAR LONG relationship, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do this.
First, you had a one night stand while she was probably either in eating Ben & Jerry’s or out getting drunk with her girlfriends.
Her version of events: SLEAZY.
And the following is something that you’d think would be a practical concern for BOTH genders, but I guess I’m a woman who will NEVER understand a man’s SEXFIRSTSEXFIRSTSEXFIRST prioritization of sex over just about anything, including death.
(And I know it’s a “guy thing” because my gay male friends say the exact same thing.)
Why has NO man who’s talked about this on this post mentioned the possibility of a LETHAL TRANSMITTED SEXUAL DISEASE?!?
We don’t know if the OP protected himself. We don’t know anything about the woman he slept with. We know condoms can break.
We DO know that if he goes back with his original GF that he’s automatically put her at risk of catching one, as a result of what he’s done.
Not judging.
I just sometimes wonder if it’s worth commenting anymore because so many of you guys just seem to think of relationships in such a quantum-ly different way.
Doesn’t anyone think of their S.O.’s emotional or physical health anymore?
Especially in a relationship that lasted more than a year, no matter how many “months” it’s characterized by?
Do you all honestly believe that cheating and lying are the only “wrong” things you can do to bash someone’s heart in?
Or is it just about the sex in 21st century America?
*smh*
m Mar 7th 2008 at 01:36 am 23
“” You want a guy to tell you the truth about cheating? You better be prepared to forgive him and painfully accept his apology. Otherwise, you’re asking for him to lie to you.””
Respectfully, Evan, I disagree.
He should be prepared for the possibility that I might forgive him.
He should also be prepared for the possibility that I might not.
Given the double standards in our society, I certainly wouldn’t expect him to forgive me, if I were in that hot seat.
But double standards aside, for him to cheat and then expect to be forgiven is a level of entitled expectation I just can’t get behind.
I mean, really. If he cheats on me, why should he expect to be forgiven?
(And, please, no evo-psycho-biobabble about how women are always the more nurturing, patient, and forgiving gender, no matter how heinous the level of BS perpetrated by the man.)
He isn’t some sort of prince for whom I, the lesser noblewoman, must overlook all slights. This is not Henry VIII’s court we’re talking about here.
Selena Mar 7th 2008 at 03:51 am 24
Uh, I have to say that asking a partner to tell you if they ever cheat on you and telling them that if they do the relationship will be over–is not asking the partner to lie to you. It’s asking the partner not to cheat on you and explaining what the consequences will be if they don’t comply. Pretty simple.
And straightforward–unlike cheating and lying about it.
Steve Mar 7th 2008 at 06:22 am 25
I would like to thank Selena for her insightful post and perhaps offer a little bit of insight in return. I can’t speak for Brian or every man out there, but a liaison soon after a relationship ends isn’t about replacing anybody. You can’t replace emotions, memories and bonding with just sex.
When somebody breaks up with you, there is always an element of rejection being felt, no matter how small. Sleeping with a date soon after a relationship provides a feeling of worth and validation as a buffer against the rejection. It also provides affection, being touched, etc…..that helps heal the wounds. Lastly, not to sound crass, but it would also be about doing something positive for yourself. You just got dumped out of a long relationship, you feel down, you feel like you screwed up, you feel rejected. Instead of dwelling on it you are picking yourself up and getting back in the race. You are owning your situation and putting your life back in order.
Lance Mar 7th 2008 at 06:30 am 26
Had a couple more thoughts about Brian and the ex-gf: Notice he makes no mention of his remorse (or lack thereof) of the ONS, nor does he think it’s weird about the timing. Perhaps he had an already established pattern of cheating during the relationship, and this was the ultimate proof of character to her. Also, WHY did they break up? WHY did she “push” for it? There’s a ton of stuff there that’s left unsaid.
I would ask Brian to analyze the actual relationship and see what led to the breakup. The timing and the lie versus truth issues are a bit secondary.
JerseyGirl Mar 7th 2008 at 07:04 am 27
I don’t think this guy Brian did anything wrong but I can also understand why his ex would be hurt. If it had happened to me I would think that our relationship must have not meant that much if he can so easily go out and sleep with another woman so quickly.
—————————————————————————–
” You want a guy to tell you the truth about cheating? You better be prepared to forgive him and painfully accept his apology. Otherwise, you’re asking for him to lie to you.”
Yeah, I take issue with this qoute too. It really negates any responsiblity the cheater has in telling the turth in the name of the reaction of the non-cheater. It puts the reprocusions on the non-cheater which isn’t fair. I think it is obvious the person that was cheated on is going to be hurt. And to suggest that they have to be prepared to offer forgiveness and grace to the cheater , in a situation where the cheater clearly didn’t do any of that themselves, is ridiculous.
—————————————————————————–
Murry T:
“Asking your partner to tell the truth if s/he were to cheat - and to subsequently face the consequences - is not that outrageous or laughable a request.”
Completely agree. And to suggest otherwise is making excuses for the cheater and their behavior and reactions and asking the non-cheater to be accomodating to someone that didn’t do the same.
beth Mar 7th 2008 at 08:18 am 28
“…the cheater sees telling the truth and self-preservation as two things that directly conflict with one another. Whereas the guy with integrity who just made a mistake sees telling the truth as essential to his self-preservation.”
Beautifully put, Murray. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Steve Mar 7th 2008 at 08:19 am 29
m
Did you do something wrong?
If your 16-month (God, you men quantify relationships the way most women talk about babies. What’s wrong with OVER A YEAR? D*mn.) relationship was with a woman who thinks the way “most” women think —
YES.
Do you literally mean “wrong” or do you mean “hurt”?
The latter almost everyone can accept. The former would imply that you can’t take a woman at her word, which would put women below the level of being responsible adults. That isn’t good.
I understand how women in this situation can feel hurt, but they hurt themselves. You can’t dump a person and continue to have certain expectations on them.
Michael Ejercito Mar 7th 2008 at 08:54 am 30
The guy with integrity would not have cheated in the first place.
Justy Mar 7th 2008 at 09:26 am 31
Seems as if pretty much everyone is agreement that Brian didn’t actually cheat. It looks as if there are two separate points being discussed. One is whether you should admit to your partner whether you cheated or not, and what to expect as a result of the confession. The other is whether it’s OK or not to have a ONS so soon after the breakup of a LTR.
The 2nd one first - Sometimes we make a surface accusation to cover up something much deeper. Brian’s gf’s accusation that he cheated is very likely a mask based on the hurt that she feels. Gentlemen, I hear your perspective (especially Steve #25) and understand it. Makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, feelings don’t follow logic or sense. If she is hurting as a result of his actions, whether right or not, all the sense and logic in the world isn’t going to make her hurt go away. It’ll probably make it worse because the real issue isn’t being addressed. Emotions aren’t healed by logic and being right. If he cares about taking her back or is considering this reconciliation in any way, Brian needs help her feel that he really does care and it will take time. If he doesn’t, experience and food for thought for next time, and move on.
Should you admit that you cheated (which by the way doesn’t really apply to Brian’s case since he didn’t really cheat)? In my heart I want to say that you should always be honest, because otherwise trust erodes. The brain, it tells me to keep my big mouth shut! When all is balanced, Murry T. says it all - well said. I could add nothing more.
to Steve -
Again, technically, you are correct. If we end a relationship, we shouldn’t continue to have expectations. However, this was a year+ relationship. If there was caring for that length of time, it is unlikely that caring would suddenly stop. The expectation isn’t really a ONS. it is the seeming lack of respect for the relationship’s mourning period (as posted by Anonymous #20) .
Selena Mar 7th 2008 at 10:53 am 32
I don’t think these issues are gender specific. Wouldn’t any number of guys be upset to find out their gf-ex-gf had a ONS two weeks after the breakup if they subsequently considered reconcilling? Wouldn’t they also have trouble with the ’sleaze factor’? Timing? Trust issues? I’d bet a fair number of men would wonder if the gf had her eye on someone BEFORE the breakup and possibly accuse her of cheating and lying as well.
The point is not whether it’s WRONG to have a ONS after a breakup, it’s that doing so creates a bitter taste and an obstruction when it comes to attempting to reconcile. Perhaps an uneasy feeling that every time there is a tiff, the other party is going to be out looking to get laid. An indication of lack of investment in the relationship.
Also, I don’t know that many guys who would be automatically prepared to forgive their girlfriends for cheating on them. Truly, the argument that ANYONE should be prepared to forgive such a thing is laughable. You find you either do, or you don’t, or you try, but cannot. Many people who have been cheated on in the past have concluded it’s best for them to not bother with the concept of forgiveness and just move on. Being upfront about that is NOT tacitly asking your partner to lie to you if s/he cheats, it’s being HONEST with them from the start about consequences of actions.
Evan Marc Katz Mar 7th 2008 at 11:21 am 33
You keep on focusing the idea that women should forgive men for cheating. That’s not the point, although I do feel that infidelity can be forgiven. Here’s the real issue - a logical one, not an emotional one:
Unless men feel that they will be forgiven for cheating, they have NO INCENTIVE to tell the truth. Murray’s point is well-stated and it appeals to our honorable sides. In fact, it’s a huge reason as to why I don’t think I’ll ever be a cheater - I wouldn’t be able to LIVE with myself; my conscience would eat me alive.
That said, self-preservation is a lot stronger than honor for, well, pretty much everybody. Bill Clinton. Roger Clemens. Or you, if you cheat on your taxes or fib on your profile. We are selfish by nature, and to think that most men will voluntarily break up a ten year marriage to the mothers of their children for a one-time mistake is absurd. Let’s talk about the real world and how things ARE, instead of how we want them to be.
30% of people in 30 year marriages have cheated at one time or another. This means that a) lots of people have been lying for self-preservation, and/or b) lots of people have the capacity to forgive for the greater good of the relationship.
But this absolutist, moralist, pie-in-the-sky, “you should tell me that you cheated on me, upon which I’ll dump you” thing?
Gimme a break.
Steve Mar 7th 2008 at 11:35 am 34
Justy;
The phrase “technically correct” to me, implies that the person is wrong anyway. FWIW, being logical does solve emotional problems. It is called cognitive behavioral therapy. It has been clinically proven to be more effective then medication for several psychological issues. Its core idea is that emotions are reactions to our thoughts. Change the thoughts and the emotions change.
Selena;
I like your “tables turned” analogy. If I broke up with my girlfriend, changed my mind 2 weeks later, contacted, and found out that she slept with another I would indeed be hurt. I would also consider it to be my own fault because I told her we were through and I set her free.
Selena Mar 7th 2008 at 12:02 pm 35
Yes Steve, I agree. That is a conclusion Brian’s gf/ex-gf needs to come to as well if they are to reconcile successfully.
Ron Mar 7th 2008 at 12:13 pm 36
Anonymous-
if you’re going to personally criticize somone’s posts here, at least have the courage to post your real name, rather than some juvenile “anonymous” post.
Grow up.
lorelei Mar 7th 2008 at 12:14 pm 37
EMK: “But this absolutist, moralist, pie-in-the-sky, “you should tell me that you cheated on me, upon which I’ll dump you” thing?
Gimme a break.”
I’d say a break is exactly what your ex-gf gave you. A break-up, that is. And with your position, I have to admit I could see myself having done the same if I were her. I personally do not relish being told that my ideals are unrealistic, unattainable, or silly.
It sounds to me like you weren’t opposed to her stance against infidelity, so much as shellshocked by her delivery. That’s fair enough.
But that doesn’t make either one of you right or wrong. It just means the two of you were not meant to be.
So all is as it should be.
Ron Mar 7th 2008 at 12:19 pm 38
Samantha,
You are setting yourself up for a major personal lawsuit by posting personal material of someone else on YouTube and posting pictures of “cheaters” on a website when they have not given you the photos to do so.
I am not defending cheaters, and I believe what goes around comes around.
But, you should brush up on Internet law or else you are going to get cleaned out by a personal civil lawsuit.
I have just read of cases where people’s reputations were damaged online by someone doing what you are doing, and the juries are very sympathetic to the victims.
Not a good idea. But you’ll probably have to learn the hard way.
Selena Mar 7th 2008 at 12:21 pm 39
Evan,
Some people DO forgive cheating. And some who cheat decide to keep their mouths shut about it. There are people who choose to look the other way about cheating to preserve their lifestyle as well. That’s the real world.
The INCENTIVE should be NOT to cheat.
It’s the idea that you should be either be prepared to forgive cheating, or be prepared to be lied to about it that is absurd.
Steve Mar 7th 2008 at 01:28 pm 40
Selena;
I thought you have a very good point about the perils of his ex-gf possibly straining a resume relationship in the future by throwing his activities back in his face. I have two friends who were almost divorced over something like that.
Samanthah;
When I first read your post my thought was “serves the bum right”, but I think it also makes you look dangerous. Payback is finite. At some point a person has paid for their crime and been punished. You need to know when to quit.
Ron Mar 7th 2008 at 01:39 pm 41
I’ll say one more thing about this subject (I’d like to put it in big bold 18 size font if I could):
If someone breaks up with you, it is none of their damn business how long it takes you to get “over them.” It’s none of your business if it takes them 5 minutes (whith a shrug of the shoulder whenever they think of you) or 5 years.
This is the main argument here over Brian’s letter. I say, if this woman broke up with Brian, Brian is free to sleep with another woman 5 minutes after the breakup (or sooner if he has a booty call on speed dial).
Women (or men) that have a problem with that are just letting their own egos and insecurities get in the way of it. This is not a sexist issue at all. Same rules apply to men who break up with the woman.
The offended party (Brian’s ex in this case) just want to know that the man (or woman) is suffering for X amount of time after the break up. That makes them feel better. It makes them feel like they were truly loved.
Give me a break. These people don’t know what love is. Love is wanting the best for the other person, not hoping they suffer for weeks after the breakup just to satisfy their own petty egos.
I’ll say it again. If you break up with someone, that person is a free agent, and can sleep with anyone or do anything they please with the opposite sex. If you give such a rat’s ass about them, then don’t break up with them to begin with.
If you don’t like how “suddenly” they get over you, or decide to get intimate with another soul, it’s your problem, not theirs.
May sound cold, but it’s the bitter reality. If you have a problem with it, it’s your own selfishness, you’re own insecurity.
Every person who gets dumped when they were giving the relationship 100% effort and honesty deserves to get over that relationship 1 flat second after they get their walking papers.
Whew! God I feel better now.
Evan Marc Katz Mar 7th 2008 at 01:56 pm 42
(And with your position, I have to admit I could see myself having done the same if I were her.)
Why? Because I said that it’s wholly illogical for someone to commit relationship suicide?
Nobody is defending cheating.
Everybody knows it’s wrong.
No one is even saying it should be forgiven.
All I’m saying is that it makes no sense for a guy who made an unforgivable mistake to ask for forgiveness if he knows he’ll never be forgiven. Why is this so hard to understand?
This is not a moral argument. It’s a logical argument. Reread the thread. All I said is that if you’re hoping for a confession, you’d better be willing to forgive him, or you ain’t gonna get a confession. Thus, the original question:
If a man stands to lose his entire relationship by confessing to a mistake, what is his incentive to confess?
If your answer is “doing the right thing” or “integrity”, I think we can make the case that self-preservation is almost always going to win out. I’m not arguing that this is a GOOD thing. I’m saying that it HAPPENS. This is ONLY point I was trying to make.
Have a great weekend, y’all. Thanks for your stimulating comments.
starthrower Mar 7th 2008 at 03:14 pm 43
We-are-overthinking-this-kids….
Guys-can-and-do-have-sex-and-are-more-able-to-have-sex-separate-from-emotions-than-are-women.
Also-cheating-is-not-unforgivable….we-should-always-forgive-because-it-sets-us-free…but-it-may-be-the-end-of-a-relationship.
Forgiviness-does-not-necessarily-constitute-restoration-of-the-relationship.
starthrower Mar 7th 2008 at 03:17 pm 44
Ron-I-sense-alot-of-anger….
Justy Mar 7th 2008 at 03:33 pm 45
Steve-
Sorry. I really and truly didn’t mean at as an implication of being wrong anyway, although looking back, I can see that it was a poor choice of words. I meant that being right sometimes takes a back seat for other things.
FWIW - It is worth. Yes, logic can and does affect emotions in the way you explained it, but I know whenever I’ve used that approach, it is conscious and deliberate. It is not something I think of in the heat of the moment when I’m angry or hurt or upset. Instead, it takes time and conscious effort after I’ve cooled down to do this work. All I’m saying is that if he is interested in renewing the relationship, time can help. If he isn’t interested, the point is moot.
Selena Mar 7th 2008 at 03:36 pm 46
Gee Ron,
You are such an empathetic soul. How’s that working for ya?
Actually, I agree that once you break up you don’t owe each other anything in terms of loyalty or how long someone else should take to “get over it”. But the problem comes in if you find the two of you are “just not done yet” and want to try to get back together. What happened during the short breakup perhaps logically shouldn’t matter, but emotionally it often does. Tough, but there it is nontheless. And the kind of vehemence you espouse is not conducive to starting over with kindness and understanding and a willingness to move forward.
Since letters to this blog seem to run a month after the writer sent them, it would be interesting to hear from Brian as to how things worked out in the last month.
Lance Mar 7th 2008 at 04:25 pm 47
@EMK: I hear you on the integrity vs. self-preservation argument. I’ve gone the self-preservation route (I’m sure nearly everyone has) MANY times; some of them I regretted deeply, some of them I truly thought I was doing the right thing. Nowadays, I’m actively trying to stay on the integrity side as of this year. If I make a mistake, I’ll be honest about it and suffer the consequences, even if it means losing the relationship. I can envision tons of scenarios though where I would compromise that value, although they’re fairly extreme. The influence of survival is very powerful.
@everyone else: I find Brian sympathetic for some reason, and no it’s not because I’m a guy. My best advice is for him to NOT try to get the girl back; instead be single and let her cool off. If he’s capable of a ONS, then he’s likely attractive and can find dates. If she really likes him, they might find each other down the road. If they get back together the ONS will be a splinter that never goes away, and no amount of logic or debate will change that.
Hope everyone has a good weekend also, including m who called me out on another thread (btw are you a chick or dude?). This blog is getting addictive, and I mean that in a good way.
m Mar 7th 2008 at 04:54 pm 48
“You keep on focusing the idea that women should forgive men for cheating.”
Gonna quote you here, Evan, with the suggestion you directed to the woman in the relationship:
“You better be prepared to forgive him and painfully accept his apology.”
So perhaps that’s why we’re so focused on that. (I’m guessing, of course. Plus it sounds a philosophy that would give a man a massive entitlement complex. Which I don’t think is what was intended.)
“All I’m saying is that it makes no sense for a guy who made an unforgivable mistake to ask for forgiveness if he knows he’ll never be forgiven. Why is this so hard to understand?”
Because, as you say yourself, it’s an UNFORGIVEABLE mistake.
Therefore, it’s reasonable to expect that a logical, rational man (please note adjectives utilized, particularly in the face of your own reliance thereon :D) might need to entertain the notion that if he makes an UNFORGIVEABLE mistake, there’s a chance — and notice, none of us say how big the chance is or is not — that he might NOT be forgiven??
What you seem to be saying is that men want a prospective guarantee of forgiveness for something that by your own definition is unforgiveable.
HOWEVER …
You might be talking about something else.
If the hypothetical you’re setting up here is:
Woman Says at Beginning/Middle of Relationship: “If you cheat on me, I’ll never forgive you.”
Man Thinks to Himself: “Well, then, I’ll never tell you if I do cheat,”
then that’s something different. A subtle distinction, but an important one.
In THAT instance, IMHO (and I can’t believe I’m about to reveal this in front of men, but half of you probably aren’t listening anyway, ’cause a woman’s talking) then the woman is making a tactical relationship management mistake.
Because IMO a man shouldn’t know whether his woman is going to forgive him or not if he cheats.
He can consider the risk — BEFORE he cheats.
And if he’s a good risk manager and he cares about his primary relationship (assuming that it’s normal, and not one of those Hamptons or Malibu things where everyone fools around with everyone else’s spouse), then he’s NOT going to cheat.
And this isn’t really just about men either. This applies irrespective of who the prospective cheating party is.
Speaking of party, it’s time to go do it. Have a nice weekend, everyone.
Evan Marc Katz Mar 7th 2008 at 05:27 pm 49
I swore I wasn’t going to do this, but:
The question isn’t whether a man should cheat. We’re all in agreement on that one. It’s why he should confess if he does. And no one has given a good answer as to how HE benefits from confessing HIS error. To put it another way, stop thinking of this as a man/woman thing. Stop thinking of yourself as the victim.
Let’s say YOU cheated.
Let’s say YOU feel terribly guilty.
Let’s say YOU know your boyfriend has been burned by cheating women before and will NOT tolerate your transgression.
Why would you tell him the awful truth? Just to make things “right”? To absolve your guilt? To ensure that you break up and that you’re both miserable? The LOGICAL action would be to swallow hard until you choke on your guilt and vow not to fuck up again.
So if you’re one of those people who would voluntarily destroy her relationship by confessing (M? Selena? Lorelei?), please explain to me: how does acting with integrity AFTER the fact amount to a win/win, when it clearly seems to be a lose/lose?
Selena Mar 7th 2008 at 06:51 pm 50
Why would I cheat on my partner? I’m the kind of person who would breakup if I wanted to dally with someone else. And I’d like to think anyone I was involved with would do the same.
They haven’t though. I’ve been cheated on by more than one bf–and they didn’t ‘confess’, I just managed to find out. Yes, it’s devestating, and yes I’ve tried forgiving. It’s easier said than done BTW and one thing is sure–even if you do forgive, you NEVER forget.
In the last case, I’ve sometimes wondered if I would have been better off not knowing. Would the outcome have been different? Or the same? (We broke up, then spent 8 mos. in a very rocky reconciliation attempt only to go our separate ways anyway). I’d certainly have been spared alot of pain by not finding out, but it’s questionable whether that is a good thing or not.
Some people want to know if their partner is cheating even if it means unequivocably the relationship ends. By warning them of this in advance, so to speak, they hope it will make their partner stop and think hard, before crossing the cheating line. Is it REALLY worth losing the relationship over a fling? And you’d have to be really stupid to not consider that your partner might end the r’ship over cheating, even if nothing was ever said in advance at all. How many people are out there do you think, who are confident their partner would forgive them for cheating? A slip? A slip My Aunt Fannie. Cheating doesn’t “just happen”– it happens to people who are willing to cheat.
As far as confessing goes, I’d guess that is a way to clear your conscience whatever the outcome may be. A desire to have no secrets and/or perhaps a release from the fear your partner will find out some other way. A legitimate fear BTW, a cheater may not have been as discreet as s/he thought s/he was and secrets have a way of coming out regardless. There will never be a win/win outcome when it comes to cheating even without a confession. To confess or not, will always be a personal decision.
Instead of telling partners you would leave them if they cheated, perhaps people should start telling their partners that if they cheated, then THEY would feel free to go out and cheat as well. Give ‘em something to chew on before they take off their clothes.
That would probably just give us more paranoid, insecure people running around than we already have now. Aye.
Lance Mar 7th 2008 at 07:13 pm 51
If you put it that way there doesn’t seem to be a win-win, except only in the abstract for the one partner. You feel somewhat good about yourself for maintaining your integrity post-fuckup even though you risk/lost the relationship. I’m all about that though. Who here wouldn’t take the lose/lose occasionally if it meant being honest and principled in the end?
JerseyGirl Mar 8th 2008 at 10:13 am 52
Evan:
“Unless men feel that they will be forgiven for cheating, they have NO INCENTIVE to tell the truth.”
Are people accountable or not accountable for their actions then? Because this obliterates a person accountablity by making excuses to justify a behavior.
Maybe the answer is to make him feel like there will be a positive incentive to telling the truth, even when there won’t be. That way you maintain your own personal survival and incentive while he is trying to do the same. Fight fire with fire. Create a dialogue that makes it appear there will be an incentive in telling the truth, but underneath it isn’t really the incentive he wants, which is maintaining the relationship. It would be a survival move for the person that was cheated on and needs to know the truth and knows they can’t be with a person that cheated on them. Statiscally, MOST people that have been cheated on, don’t over come it. Not all, but most.
Evan, as for your statements of being “logical”. It’s great to be logical. Women infact can be just as logical as men but in different way I believe just as men can be emotional. But if relationships could be figured out with just logical statements, they wouldn’t be relationships at all. They would be math problems. That is your flaw Evan, after reading your postings. Being logical helps and is a plus, but as a man, you only have one side of the story. And you can only give advice from one side of the story. One perspective as a man. But you completely miss the other side. And to dismiss the importance of emotions in relationships and relationship problems, would be just as bad as to dismiss the logical side of it. You can’t solve a problem with only one side, you need to look at both.
HM Mar 8th 2008 at 01:31 pm 53
What probably happened was this:
She dumps him because she isn’t satified with him and has the hots for another guy/potential guy.
During the course of the breakup the “other guy” decides he doesn’t want her (probably because of the Ben and Jerry’s stains on all of her shirts)
or
Goes out and gets drunk with her friends thinking she’s going to pick someone else up and finds out it’s not as much fun than she thought (and no one at the bar wants her).
Rejected, she wants her old boyfreind back and tries to project the anger from being rejected onto him by setting him up with the cheating question.
Either way she feels bad/guilty about something…….and she’s taking out on him.
HM
Evan Marc Katz Mar 8th 2008 at 01:42 pm 54
Actually, Jersey, you’re missing one side of the story. You keep on looking at this from the victim’s perspective instead of saying, “If I cheated, would I confess? And if so, why?” That was the entire point of my post. Anything else you’re reading into this about me glossing over the pain and emotion of infidelity is simply not on the page.
By the way, “I would never cheat!” doesn’t actually provide any insight as to why someone who cheated would voluntarily confess.
Hot Alpha Female Mar 8th 2008 at 02:49 pm 55
Evan,
I think that you have given some great advice. Firstly Brain was broken up. So he did not cheat on his girlfriend. Why is there even a debate about that?
If she didn’t want him to see other girls, then she shouldn’t have broken up with him. But when you say its over. That pretty much means you can see anyone you want to…
However i think honesty is the basis to a good and healthy relationship, so you SHOULD be upfront to your partner, should you want to get back with them after a short breakup.
Does it benefit the guy by telling the truth? yes he does because then its not eating him up inside and the relationship can start from new ground.
With that said, if the girlfriend is a little psycho then its harder for the guy to tell the truth. Because she could have a big hissy fit, which results in arguements and door slamming. N well this makes it harder for the guy to tell the girl.
Remember, people will do more to avoid pain than to gain pleasure. That why its a hard but necessay step …
Hot Alpha Female
Simone Mar 8th 2008 at 05:41 pm 56
Re: the threads about cheating: If you cheat on someone you might want to tell the other person for a whole lot of reasons that benefit you — tops of the list being so that you can be in integrity with yourself. How awful it would be to be in an initimate relationship if you have to keep such a big secret, espcially knowing that it might come out one day. (Maybe in a similar moment of “hey what the hell” as leads to ONSs.) Integrity is about knowing yourself and making decisions in accordance with your beliefs, values, and life goals. If you cheat there is a reason. Maybe the relationship isn’t right for you. Maybe you have an inappropriate way of expressing your anger at your partner. Maybe you are afraid the other person is going to cheat on you or leave you and you want to beat that person to the punch. There is important information in the act of cheating. And it isn’t about male entitlement–plenty of women cheat and plenty of men don’t–it’s about breaking an agreement or acting out for some reason. And it is a power play, no question about it — so the other person is going to be pissed. Be prepared to lose your relationship if you cheat, whether you tell or whether you hide it. You can hide cheating, but you can’t hide the power play. The other person is going to push back in some way whether they know about the cheating consciously or not.
The fellow in our story here, however, did not cheat, as there was no relationship agreement to break. It does sound though like he is the type of person to act out his feelings rather than be aware of them and make conscious decisions about his behavior. Because either he was finished with the relationship emotionally or he wasn’t. If he were then why go back? If he weren’t then why sleep with someone else? And what about that someone else — doesn’t she have feelings and hopes and expectations, too? When “negotiating” the ONS did he tell her “I just finished what has been a long and serious relationship for me and I just want to get laid to blot out whatever I am feeling at the moment and then never see you again.” I very sincerely doubt it. But I suspect that if the guy were REALLY into the truth, that is what he would have said. But it probably “just happened” and he probably really believes that “nobody got hurt” — because HE didn’t get feel bad about it. Like other posters on here, I find the empathy factor to be missing from this guy’s story. And maybe after 16 months of this kind of lack in the relationship his partner had enough and left him — only to be reminded of it when they reconciled. Or maybe she is emotionally manipulative and punishes him by breaking up, thinking that will change him, and his ONS was HIS way of pushing back. Maybe they BOTH have behaviors that are intended to hurt the other. Can this relationship be saved? I doubt it. Not as long as she thinks that by punishing him with a break up or anger that he’s going to become more aware of himself and of others (if that is what she’s doing), and not as long as he thinks that feelings and sex exist on two different planets (if that is what he thinks).
Simone Mar 8th 2008 at 06:03 pm 57
Also — about men having more sex than do women. This seems to me to be something of a myth and not logical (since we invoke logic so often on this thread). With whom are these men having sex? With each other? I don’t think so, since the focus seems to be on men v. women. If we aren’t talking about homosexual activity, men are having sex with women, and since the population is pretty much 50% men, 50% women, when it comes to heterosexual liaisons, on average the genders are pretty much divided equally when it comes to frequency of engagement.
Simone Mar 8th 2008 at 06:44 pm 58
Should clarify the above since it seems a non sequitor — instead of “having more sex” I should have said “desiring,” “wanting,” or “pursuing” sex more often, the idea here being to refute the idea that ONSs or NSA liaisons are the exclusive province of men and emotional, relationship-based sex is the exclusive province of women. No matter what people say (which might be based on societal expectations of the respective genders), look at their actions. All sorts of men are exclusive and don’t cheat and have emotional sex, and all sorts of women engage in ONSs and NSA sex and think nothing of it. The idea that the former are pussy-whipped and the latter are whorish is a bit outmoded, don’t you think? So to reduce Brian’s situation or a cheating scenario to “women just don’t get it” or “men are just dogs” (this isn’t a verbatim quote from a post, just paraphrasing and exaggerating to make the point) is too simplistic, I think. People have sex, people want to be loved, and therein lies the challenge.
m Mar 9th 2008 at 12:14 am 59
“By the way, “I would never cheat!” doesn’t actually provide any insight as to why someone who cheated would voluntarily confess.”
EMK, I think what some of us may be saying is that it doesn’t matter whether the exclamation provides any insight or not.
Here’s an analogy that came to me:
Man and woman are going from NYC to Paris. Both agree that they want to get there fast.
Man is arguing with woman over what incentives there are to take one of several ocean liners from NYC to Paris.
Woman says that it doesn’t matter which boat they would take because the Concorde (or whatever the name of the plane is that they’re building now to supersede it) will take them faster than ANY boat — and they’ve already agreed that they need to get there fast.
(Some of us) are Woman trying to take the plane.
You seem to be the Man still trying to engage us in the argument about which boat!!
“Don’t cheat! Or risk suffering the consequences (IF you haven’t been explicitly TOLD you will be left if you do)!” is the plane.
“What are the disincentives to confess once you cheat?” are the boats.
We need to get to Paris. You have agreed that you want to get there the fastest way possible. We are boarding the plane.
Why are you still trying to make us talk about the boats??
Kat Wilder Mar 9th 2008 at 07:47 am 60
The thing about cheating is this: it changes the original agreement of the relationship if you enter into a committed monogamous relationship.
If one partner decides he or she wants to screw around on the side, it directly impacts the other person’s ability to make a choice about whether he or she wants to be part of that. That partner’s choice is taken away, and that is never OK.
I know from experience (as cheater and, um cheatee?) that it’s very, very easy to cheat if one wants to. But, you always have to lie. One easy lie begets another easy lie and, well, where does it stop? To me, the most important thing is to tell the truth; what matters is what happens AFTER you tell the truth, as in how you help your partner whom you betrayed learn to trust you again. Forgiveness, yes, is essential, but that doesn’t mean the relationship goes back to what it was. And if she can’t trust you again, well, that is part of the deal the cheater entered into when he decided to act on a desire when he shouldn’t have.
The Quakers say, “Let your life speak.” That pretty much sums it up.
Nervous Nellie Mar 9th 2008 at 11:48 am 61
This thread struck a chord. Just yesterday, my boyfriend asked me if I had sex with anyone else while we were broken up. Unlike Brian, however, our relationship was only about 2 months old when I broke it off with him. Like Brian, I was honest and said I did have a one-night stand, but I did regret it afterwards. It happened because I was feeling very undesired, unattractive and OLD. I am 44-years old and he is 26. He did not react very well to my honesty, and is wondering now if I will cheat on him.
Evan’s response, Steve’s post (#25) and Ron’s post (#41) made me feel better, but I still wonder if I should have lied to him since it really is none of his business.
hunter Mar 9th 2008 at 12:53 pm 62
to brian,
You were broken up, nothing wrong with seeing someone else, but, most women don’t understand that. Next time, use diplomacy, be tactful(don’t tell her the truth). What ever you do with your body is very personal, no ones business.
JerseyGirl Mar 9th 2008 at 02:10 pm 63
Evan:
“Actually, Jersey, you’re missing one side of the story. You keep on looking at this from the victim’s perspective instead of saying, “If I cheated, would I confess? And if so, why?” That was the entire point of my post. ”
—————————————————————————-
I’m not missing what you are saying. I just don’t find what I would or wouldn’t do, condusive to the topic. I never cheated, I have had the chance to. If I ever did cheat, I would have to tell them because I don’t think I could live with that relationship on good terms. It would eat away at me. I guess the “incentive” for me would be to confess to something I did wrong and at least in that respect, try to save some part of my intregrity. But for the cheater to look for their “incentive” to to do the right thing from the person they cheated on, is another cop out to something else they already copped out on. I could see why someone would do that, because they would be a complete douche. But I hardly find it to be an excuse or justification for their behavior. Or even all that much of a truly “rational” one. Just because you can rationalize a behavior, doesn’t mean it is actually all that “rational”.
Hot Alpha Female Mar 9th 2008 at 02:33 pm 64
Hunter,
While you make a very valid point, I think that honesty is always the best policy. Yes brian was broken up when he slept with that girl, so technically he wasn’t cheating. Technically he hasn’t done anything wrong. Technically he doesn’t have to tell anyone anything.
But i think that he should tell her anyways. No she isnt going to act favourably. She isnt going to go ” ohh you slept with someone else why we were broken up” and start jumping up and down for joy.
Its a bit of a predicatment and both outcomes are not looking favourable.
I mean if you tell her, then she will be upset. If you dont tell her, will it eat start to eat you up? will you start feeling guilty, like you are not telling her the whole truth.
I think you should be honest with her, if she can accept it .. then she is a girl that is worth to cont to have a relationship with. If she can’t … then why do you want to be with her anyways.
If she can’t get over it .. the relationship wont go anywhere, anyways
Hot Alpha Female
lorelei Mar 9th 2008 at 04:25 pm 65
On whether or not it benefits the cheater to confess, I’d like to agree to disagree on this one, Evan. Because what you define as logical behavior or a “win” is informed by your own value judgments, which have more to do with emotion than reason… namely, that it would be more beneficial for you to keep the relationship you have - even if it means having to lie to someone you care about - than it is to come clean, and therefore, for you, that might be the logical choice.
However, your logical choice assumes “integrity” and “doing the right thing” have less subjective value than maintaining status quo in the relationship. Others may not feel the same, myself and your ex-gf included.
I liked what Murray T. had to say because he drew attention to the fact that “self-preservation” is defined differently depending on the type of individual. He knows it’s true as you say, Evan, that “self-preservation is almost always going to win out”, but for some, self-preservation means hanging onto someone you’re attached to even if it means concealing the truth in the process. For others, self-preservation is primarily about repairing one’s relationship with oneself — to be able to look back and know you were accountable for your mistakes, that you respected the partner in your relationship enough to not deny that person facts on which to make an informed decision.
So in that way, I don’t see it as logical or a win/win to follow one’s error in judgment with more dishonest behavior. How is it a “win” to give yourself even more reason to dislike yourself?
As far as putting myself in the cheater’s shoes instead of the victim’s, well, that’s easy for me. In younger days, I had my less proud moments of cheating, which I instantly regretted. On two separate occasions, as a matter of fact. Both times, I felt like dirt. During the first incident, my initial decision was to want to hide what I’d done and carry on with the relationship as though nothing happened.
I take it you’re familiar with Edgar Allen Poe’s “The Tell-tale Heart”? Well it was like that. Not only was the self-criticism unbearable; I also started seeing my boyfriend differently. He became the dupe, a cuckhold, someone I (irrationally) respected less. It became obvious that what I needed to end those negative thoughts was full disclosure.
This boyfriend forgave me. When I cheated on a later boyfriend, he wasn’t so forgiving and broke up with me on the spot. I’m glad I told him the truth anyway. The pain of losing him is long gone, but the pride of having taken the high road is still with me.
Thing is…I’m not invalidating your point. For some, maybe it truly is the best thing for them to continue on with the deception, if they have the stomach for it. But I, personally, would want my partner to handle the situation in the same way I had done in the past.
So I see your point, Evan. I hope you can see mine, and perhaps realize that your ex-gf doesn’t deserve so much vitriol for having held “moralist” opinions that perhaps weren’t so “absolutist” or “pie-in-the-sky” after all, seeing as how quite a number of your readers are sympathetic to her viewpoint.
wildgingersnap Mar 9th 2008 at 08:49 pm 66
If you’ve cheated, you’ve already compromised your integrity and voluntarily confessing isn’t going to restore part of it.
Confessing because it’s “eating away at you” is actually kind of selfish: you’re trying to shift some of the burden of your guilt to the other person and all it will do is destroy their peace of mind. If you can’t live with the relationship “on good terms”, then you should simply end it.
But if you know you’ve screwed up and are absolutely, positively committed to not cheating again, then the kinder thing to do is not say anything and deal with the guilt on your own.
Evan Marc Katz Mar 9th 2008 at 09:25 pm 67
I hear you, Lorelei, and I happen to concur with you personally. My conscience wouldn’t allow me to pull off cheating, much less lying about it. However, I will continue to maintain my very same original point: if a person DOES cheat, they are more likely than not going to attempt to conceal it, rather than confess. It kind of goes with the cheating thing. And I think a lot of readers weren’t truly thinking of what they would do as cheaters, but rather as victims who would want to know the whole truth.
Simple comparison: We hate to admit this, but it’s okay if WE lie about our age, height, or weight online. I mean, just a little fudging, you know, because people aren’t really giving us a fair shot. But how DARE anyone else lie to us about these substantive things? It’s easy to say that we should/would all tell the truth; reality proves to us that most people lie if it’s in their best interests. And hey, if clearing your conscience is more in your best interests than preserving the relationship, kudos to you. You are, in my opinion, in the minority.
I think this topic has been played out. I’m gonna stay off the boards. Thanks to all for their respectful and insightful commentary.
Ev
JerseyGirl Mar 10th 2008 at 05:39 am 68
Comparing “fudging” on a profile to lying about cheating on someone, are not on the same scale.
Markus Mar 10th 2008 at 08:42 am 69
You know, I don’t condone cheating but Samantha’s post #17 seems a bit over the top. Sam, how noble are you being if you were willing to set up recording equipment to record an orgasm as revenge. I’m also a little curious of this guy recording your ex with 2 girls. What kind of circles are you running in? More importantly, I would like to caution Evan over leaving this post up as I think it could get him into legal trouble down the road. Evan, if I’m you I delete that post.
Anonymous Mar 11th 2008 at 04:04 pm 70
Ron- my name is Rachel, but what the hell does that matter? I’m not afraid to state my name, I just feel as though it doesn’t give anything more away about me, so it is trivial. Grow up, says the person who criticized this woman for not being impervious to emotion. Right.
hunter Mar 11th 2008 at 07:44 pm 71
To Haf,
There are very few women that will forgive a man for doing what Brian did, even if they have broken up. And if they do, forgive, they won’t forget, and bring it up every chance they get. From another perspective, most men don’t realize, ridding oneself of guilt feelings, hurts women.
Hot Alpha Female Mar 12th 2008 at 02:39 am 72
Hunter,
I think that is very true aswell. Girls want to know the truth, but when it is something they don’t like to hear, they still get pissed.
I think if brian made that decision to sleep with someone else, then he has the deal with the concequences. That being that he can’t get back with his ex girlfriend or whatver.
But hey you live and learn.
Hot Alpha Female
jonquil Mar 12th 2008 at 10:20 am 73
hunter-
it’s true that sometimes the one cheated on is better off not knowing, but I think it’s condescending for a cheater to make the decision: “oh, s/he just can’t handle it so I’ll generously spare my partner the truth”. The cheater was just being selfish by cheating, and then belatedly shows concern for the partner just cheated on? Doesn’t add up. “S/he just can’t handle it” is more often than not a convenient excuse to be weak and dishonest.
evan,
I’m a little confused by your last comment in this thread. You concur with lorelei and wouldn’t cheat or lie to a partner, but are upset at your former partner for asking you to be straightforward which you said you would do anyway? That sounds like a weird lover’s quarrel to me.
Also I don’t think your original point was “if a person DOES cheat, they are more likely than not going to attempt to conceal it”. (I agree.) I think your original point was that your ex was “absolutist, moralist, pie-in-the-sky” for asking you not to conceal a hypothetical indiscretion. But then you basically agree with her morals?
Perhaps your former partner brought the topic up repeatedly because she was confused by your answer too.
Jonq
Evan Marc Katz Mar 12th 2008 at 10:42 am 74
Just when I thought I was out…they pull me back in!
Once and for all, this was always an intellectual debate for me, both on this thread and in the relationship 5 years ago. It was never personal since a) I’ve never cheated. b) I don’t plan on cheating, c) I have such an incredibly guilty conscience and am so anxiety prone that it would be massively stupid to cheat.
And yet, if I DID cheat and DIDN’T want to lose my relationship (because I’ve already been assured that I will), I can easily understand why I’d attempt to conceal it. It may result in my utter internal destruction, but, as we’ve established, self-preservation is a powerful thing. Why this is hard for some readers to reconcile, I’m not sure, but it makes perfect sense to me.
jonquil Mar 12th 2008 at 02:09 pm 75
I think the reason it’s difficult for your readers to wrap their heads around your position, Evan, is that they can’t as “easily understand why [you'd] attempt to conceal it.”
As has been repeated by several posters, the “self-preservation” reflex is strong, but again, what one reflexively does in “self-preservation” varies by individual.
Selena Mar 12th 2008 at 02:20 pm 76
Evan,
That premise is not hard at all for readers to reconcile. What you wrote though, was that telling a partner you would leave them if they cheated was giving them an INCENTIVE to lie to you if they did cheat. The partner delivering such a statement would do so in the hopes it would be an incentive NOT to cheat.
Not that it really matters, if someone is gonna cheat, they’re gonna cheat and they already know they are putting their relationship on the line if their partner finds out. Whether they confess, whether the partner finds out another way, and regardless if the repercussions of cheating were ever discussed in advance or not.
I’d be curious as to the percentage of cheaters who actually do confess as opposed to those who try to keep the secret. I suspect the latter far outweigh the former–cheating and lying going hand in hand they way they do. Self-preservation? Sure. But if telling someone upfront they’re out if they cheat doesn’t make them think twice about it, what would?
Personally, I wouldn’t tell a partner that, I don’t see the point, it should be rather assumed. But I can see how another person would put it right up on the table and not see it as an invitation to be lied to.
jonquil Mar 13th 2008 at 09:12 am 77
Also, Evan, I’d like to respectfully point out that being able to empathize with a person who would lie after cheating to preserve a relationship is not a purely intellectual exercise. It takes some injection of one’s personal experiences & inclinations to take that position.
Jeannie Mar 20th 2008 at 06:15 pm 78
Brian you were absolutely totally right in that you were technically free to do what you wanted. But Evan is also right - this is the “real world” and most women aren’t going to see that you are technically right. And here is why. for most of us women are brains are just hardwired to instinctually think sex=love. Its not logical to men - but its instinctual to women - it is what it is and we can’t help feeling that way (God knows many of us wish we could have sex with no attachment!). You spent 16 months ostensibly making love to this woman. And in a blink of an eye (in a woman’s timeframe) after your break up, you went out and did the exact same act with a woman you didn’t know. So what were you telling your girlfriend of 16 months by your actions in her language and her logic? That by having sex with her all those months, she meant as much to you as a one night stand?
And let’s not forget about the other woman. She is not a blow up doll but a human being and a woman which means the odds are pretty high that she was thinking sex=love. For all you know, she could have been a victim of child sexual abuse who thinks the only way she is lovable is through sex. Or she could naively have been thinking (and so many of us women have fallen into this trap) that the connection you shared that night was so amazing that you were her soulmate and that is why you were having sex with her. She could also be desperate to have a baby and you could have been the unwitting sperm bank and child support check. Do you know if she is crying on her girlfriends shoulders now about the man who used her? What to you was just a grief stricken one night stand is pretty big stuff to a woman. Women are looking for gentlemen - a