Oct30

Men Look for Sex and Find Love. Women Look for Love and Find Sex.

10:00 am on Oct 30th 2008 Evan Marc Katz

Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice

Tags: commitment, dating, dating advice, dating tips, relationship advice, relationships, sex, understanding men

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• How Long Have You Been Looking for Love Online?
• Where Are All the Cute, Stable, Successful, Funny, Interesting Men?

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141 Responses to “Men Look for Sex and Find Love. Women Look for Love and Find Sex.”

1. Peter Oct 30th 2008 at 11:33 am 1

   One thing to know about men, is that we love the thrill of the hunt. And if women are being honest, they loved to be chased.

   So understanding that, know that men’s first prize is to have sex (I’m sure some guy out there will say “no”, but trust me, this applies to the other 99.9%). Once we’ve achieved that, you have to give us another hunt to go after. If you immediately go into relationship mode right after our first sexual encounter, we will have a tendency to lose interest. Why? Because there is nothing left to chase after.

   If however, after having sex with us, you pull away some, you’ll be surprised how hard we will try to earn your adoration. That’s something we want just as much as sex.

   Is it a game? Sure. But human attraction goes far beyond rational thinking and logic. You have to excite the animal within as well.

2. Robin Oct 30th 2008 at 11:53 am 2

   Evan,
   Your answer to “Men Look for Sex and find Love” is disheartening at best for all us ladies out there trying to find love and just being ourselves.

   So, if this is the REAL truth, then there is only one question for us: “How do we stop being women?” Most women I know develop feelings, they get attached, (even if the guy is a total jerk). I think it’s part of our DNA. The only way that poor Lauren and lots of others are going to avoid this tragic scenario is to stop being women and become like men (emotionally I mean). If we keep being sweet and loving, we continually get hurt. Men wonder why some women are so cold and calculating? Take a wild guess. Thanks for your column. I am a big fan.

3. Zann Oct 30th 2008 at 12:07 pm 3

   I just read Peter’s comment (#1) above. Sure, he may not speak for all men, but I’ll bet he’s pretty damn close. And while I find that kind of honesty refreshing, all I can say is ……Wow. Admit it dudes, you are some pretty strange beings.

4. xpuff Oct 30th 2008 at 12:23 pm 4

   Yeah, reading this is pretty damn depressing from a women’s point of view. What are we supposed to do? Guys will tell us what they think we want to hear because they “mean it at the time.” Great. So how to tell who’s a good guy?

   I realize that is just reality, but seriously, men just get everything they want and women just have to wait to get lucky?

5. Honey Oct 30th 2008 at 12:44 pm 5

   I was the BF’s first date after he got out of a 4-year relationship, and he was moving 120 miles away within a week. I e-mailed him on myspace and he went out with me purely because 1) I seemed attractive and interesting, 2) he needed some practice before moving to a new city and REALLY dating.

   We had sex that first night and are still together 2.5 years later, living together and trying to save up for engagement and a wedding.

   So anything can happen at any time…Evan’s right I think, that most people if they found something that would work perfectly for them long-term will turn the interaction into a LTR even if they SAID that’s not what they were looking for. Similarly, even someone who explicitly states they are looking for a LTR will turn things into a booty call, friendship, or nothing at all if the situation warrants it. It’s less about what someone says they are looking for (though you do get some extremes where people absolutely won’t consider anything but a booty call or a serious relationship) and more about how the two of you mesh.

   And because I thought this was a little disturbing, I wanted to say–I think 3 months is EXACTLY about when you can expect to find out if a relationship’s heading in a serious direction or not. 3 months is about when we had the boyfriend/girlfriend talk (though we were exclusive before that because we wanted to have sex but didn’t want to use condoms) and about the time he moved back to my city.

   Hooray!

6. JuJu Oct 30th 2008 at 12:55 pm 6

   Yeah, it’s like we are from different planets in this regard.

   I remember talking to a guy friend who said that what he likes best in a woman is if she is not particularly interested in him. And I was like, “wha…?” If I am attracted to a guy, obviously I want him to be interested, I want him to be as interested as he is capable of!

   Go figure. =)

7. Selena Oct 30th 2008 at 01:21 pm 7

   I dated a guy once who told me on our first date he was the kind of man who usually dated more than one woman at a time, how did I feel about that?

   I considered it. At that moment I wasn’t particularly looking for something serious. In fact in the year before I met him, I hadn’t been “looking” for anything at all. I told him I’d give it a try. I warned him if I started falling in love with him I’d want to renogotiate. I also told him that I would either fall in love with him within 3 months or I wouldn’t at all. On that note of complete honesty, we began a casual dating relationship.

   It lasted 2.5 months and it was fine for what it was. I enjoyed his company, but I never did fall in love with him and after a time I decided I wanted more in the way of a relationship…just not with him. I ended it and it was the most painless breakup I’ve ever had. He told me he understood, but could we still keep seeing each other until I fell in love with someone else. I had to laugh. I also said “no”.

   His honesty was so refreshing. And it is something I’ve carried with me since. When another relationship opportunity presented itself later in the year I put the exclusivity card on the table up front. I had decided I didn’t want to sleep with someone who was also playing the field, I was looking for something that might become more than casual. And I got it. No hemming and hawing around about it. I wish all men could be so forthright.

   I get it that men don’t want to be honest for fear of missing out on sex. Unfortunately, that puts us women in the often uncomfortable position of stalling them longer than we would wish to. It becomes a fine line between waiting long enough that we have some confidence they won’t just bail after getting sex, and hoping they won’t bail before because they get tired of waiting and write us off as frigid. It’s a wonder that people are actually able to form significant relationships at all given the subtrafuge.

8. Honey Oct 30th 2008 at 02:33 pm 8

   @xpuff, #4: what makes him a bad guy for being honest at the time? Why does the fact that it turns out to not be the case in perpetuity somehow make him a villain? It could be disappointing for you, yes, but I’m not sure that it says anything negative about his character.

9. Karl R Oct 30th 2008 at 02:48 pm 9

   I agree with Evan, men don’t always know what they want. And even when they do, how they handle the (often contradictory) things they want doesn’t always make sense.

   I’ll use my own life as an example. I would like a long term, exclusive relationship. Lately I’ve been dating a couple women. I don’t intend to date either exclusively.

   I met one lady through dancing; I thought there was some long-term potential, but the age difference has turned out to be too much for me. I met the other lady when I sat near her at a restaurant. She’s a hot foreigner, but she doesn’t seem sufficiently interested in me. It’s possible that she’s just playing hard to get, but unlike Peter (#1), I don’t pursue women unless they’re interested in me.

   To complicate things further, I don’t have sex with a woman unless we’re exclusive. So even though I’d really like to have sex with either one of these ladies, I won’t.

   So why do I continue to go out with both of these ladies? Because sometimes I like to spend an evening with an attractive lady. Because I like to spend time with women who are cute and fun. And because it usually doesn’t interfere with my normal activities … where I meet other attractive, single women who might be long term relationship material.

   Basically, I’m performing a balancing act between my desires and my standards, between my short term goals and my long term goals. And as Evan indicated, I spend a lot of my time living in the moment.

10. Michelle Oct 30th 2008 at 03:05 pm 10

    Some guys fear intimacy and look for mother substitutes their whole life. The more the merrier! Sometimes guys look for that one woman who will show they value themselves enough say no they won’t settle for a non-exclusive relationship like all the others, and stick to it.

    But yes this has to be established up front or forget it! However, if they can get you to compromise on this issue, they tend to loose all respect, (you loose all the power), and they feel free to come and go and see and sleep with whomever whenever…no matter how attached you get. Because hey it’s not a real relationship to them is it?

11. Charon Oct 30th 2008 at 03:24 pm 11

    I have to say that this article hit home. This is the exact issue that i deal with and some of my girlfriends deal with. I am starting to sort of get the whole mechanics of attraction and how men see things and how women see things. There is not guarantee in life about anything and it seems you have to pay to play. Selena particulary hit the nail on the head when she said there is basically that fine line where you straddle that I don’t want him to get frustrated and leave but I don’t want to give it all up the first night. Thanks for the article

12. A-L Oct 30th 2008 at 04:16 pm 12

    I sort of understand this concept of men, though at the same time I think there are the guys that are very LTR/marriage-minded, perhaps because of their own desire to have kids or settle down by a certain age. I think many of these guys don’t necessarily hide their intentions when on an online dating site. That being said, however, I think Evan’s right about most guys.

    In terms of how girls should react, I don’t think it’s necessary to put your heart out there to be trampled on. Sex (well orgasms, however they’re produced) creates the incredibly bonding oxytocin which causes women to latch on to the guy. By abstaining until exclusivity then the woman is much better able to just hang out with the guy, enjoy his company, and see where things go without becoming totally neurotic about it.

    Also, if you find yourself obsessing about a guy, go out and date other guys. You won’t have the time to obsess about him as much (a little bit is inevitable, I admit it), it gives you more options, and it also helps the guy realize that you aren’t always going to be there at his beck and call.

    Recently, I was in a phase where there were three guys in the picture. One I agonized over mentally and had explosive chemistry with. Another I enjoyed his company and had some chemistry with, but was fine when we weren’t hanging out. And the third was uber-nice and had the same interests and sense of humor but little in the way of sparkage. But because I was seeing these different guys, I didn’t let any one tip me too far over the edge, because I was just enjoying myself and not feeling the need to pin anything down. Guys 1 and 3 are pretty much out of the romantic picture now, but things are going along rather swimmingly with guy #2. But if he’d been the only one in the picture from the get to, I may have obsessed about things too much and ruined it. At least now there’s the possibility of this turning into something more serious.

13. hunter Oct 30th 2008 at 04:47 pm 13

    to Karl R on post 9,

    I agree with what you say. Most men are contradictory, because, I think, most of us, we don’t really know what we are doing.(lack of experience)hhmmhh…LOL!…yes….

    Most men don’t know, we can look for a long term relationship, get into a long term relationship, three or six months into it,(or sooner or later) change our minds,(for whatever reason) and get out of it, if that is what we want to do. “I can’t be the man you want me to be.” “I am going back to my old girlfriend.”

    Your two friendships won’t get complicated, until, you have sex with them.

14. Kenley Oct 30th 2008 at 05:50 pm 14

    I really wanted to believe that most men were good guys who didn’t knowingly and willingly hurt women. Evan’s response was very sad to me because it suggests that men want sex first and foremost and they don’t care who they hurt to get it. In order to avoid getting hurt, women can’t trust not only what men say but what they do as well. However, I am having a difficult reconciling this post with the one where Evan says that we have to be generous and kind and accepting in order to find love. I don’t really understand how a woman can be generous and loving if at the same time, she can’t trust a man.

    Honey, you are very fortunate to have a great relationship with boyfriend, but you should realize that men who sleep with women on the first date rarely have any thing to do with them again. Like you, when I met my boyfriend of 17 years, we had sex on the first date. And he was pretty much devoted to me. When we broke up, I thought sleeping with a guy on the first date was a good thing. Boy was I wrong! I slept with a number of men on the first date — ones that I really liked and thought liked me — and I never made it to a second date with any of them! I was shocked, but I learned my lesson. So, my own personal experience plus the stuff I’ve read from other dating experts indicates that it is extremely rare that a long term relationship blossoms when a couple has sex on the first date. So, while I agree what ultimately determines what people will do is based on how they mesh, the odds aren’t in favor of people meshing when they sleep with each other on day one. You were one of the rare and lucky ones.

15. Lynn Oct 30th 2008 at 07:03 pm 15

    What happened to integrity? What happened to communicating like a grown-up? What happened to any kind of accountability? Did all of this get thrown out the window when women achieved equal rights? Now it sounds like women can expect nothing from men and be happy if they get anything, even honesty. Maybe I am just having a bad week, Evan, but it seems like this post acknowledges the fact that men are wielding all the power out there over women, and if we want to play, it’s the luck of the draw.

16. mic Oct 30th 2008 at 08:29 pm 16

    If any men are “wielding all the power,” it’s the especially good-looking men. Less attractive men probably have less power than they used to.

    The key line in Laura’s letter:
    Hindsight has pointed out that on his profile he listed he wanted a “casual relationship” as opposite to my listing of wanting a “serious relationship”.
    Educated guess: she liked his picture(s).

17. Jojo Oct 31st 2008 at 02:10 am 17

    “The truth is that if we tell you that we don’t know what’s going to happen in the morning, nothing will ever happen.”
    Boo hoo if he gets no sex that night! So basically the guy has to be dishonest in order to get sex from a girl. Unfortunately, we cannot change the behavior of people, but I feel that we’re all adults and should be able to communicate honestly with each other. I know the guys speak and act out of the moment and you have to take what they say with a grain of salt sometimes. However, when it comes down to the act of sex, there really should not be game playing.

18. hunter Oct 31st 2008 at 06:15 am 18

    to Mic on post #16

    How true!…yet, we can still enjoy the feminine graces of women in other categories.

19. hunter Oct 31st 2008 at 06:24 am 19

    to Jojo on post #17

    Most nice guys are honest communicators, I don’t think they earn time in the “sack”, that is why they are called “nice” guys.

20. xpuff Oct 31st 2008 at 08:02 am 20

    Honey, I guess what I meant by “good” guy is “good for me”, not good in an absolute-morality-of-the-universe way. I understand guys wanting the things that they want at the time, I’ve been there myself. However when I was dating, it was extremely frustrating to encounter this sort of behavior. The guys weren’t bad guys necessarily, just not good for me.

21. JuJu Oct 31st 2008 at 08:41 am 21

    re: Lynn’s post #15

    I don’t think I agree with this. What kind of power are you implying?

    A woman can take as much “power” back as she wants (that is, if we are choosing to think in terms of power, which I personally really do not) by being self-aware enough to recognize that this feeling of immediate attachment is not real, but hormonal, and by loving herself enough to continue living an active life.

22. Lili Oct 31st 2008 at 10:23 am 22

    Why would I want to have sex with a man whom I don’t trust?

    No trust = no orgasm, even if man is otherwise sexually interesting.

    I don’t see the point of pleasing a man, unless I get what I desire. I am so selfish that I want to get it too.

    And real trust won’t come only from attraction, it only comes when you know him well enough to know what his inner world is like. If he is trustworthy, and interested, he will also understand my point on the matter. So what am I losing when I’m not having sex with a total stranger? (after 2 weeks he is still that)
    Absolutely nothing, and only weeding out those ones that a relationship wouldn’t work with anyway.

    Nice to know that my method works, I wouldn’t want to have a sleeze anyway for my partner (a man who has sex under false pretences = is willing to hurt other one to get his own kicks, is a sleeze, not worth interest anyway).

23. Anisa Oct 31st 2008 at 11:04 am 23

    Where is the respect, where is the integrity.
    There are many women who have no problem having sex with men without committment or without being exclusive. So those man (without serious intentions, looking for easy sex) can make more efforts to meet those women. Many women want to be exclusive before having sex. It is very simple: be honest about your intentions and respect the principles of those women. So, Evan: Yes, if a man lies in order to achieve “easy” sex it makes him a bad person in my opinion. A lazy abuzer abuser.
    I think men (looking for easy sex) are in fact looking/hunting exactly for those women of principle who had not that many sexpartners yet to have sex with without commitment.

24. hunter Oct 31st 2008 at 12:47 pm 24

    to Anisa on post #23

    “There are many women who have no problem”……..usually the married women that need to be financially rescued(and who wants one of those?) or if they are single, in a much smaller pool of availability….if things were as you say, we wouldn’t hear herds of single men howling in the streets at 2:00a.m., on weekends, after the bars close…..hhhmmmhh..LOL!…..

25. MILENA Oct 31st 2008 at 02:36 pm 25

    Based on Evan’s post I would just simply say” ALL man are dogs”

26. Anisa Oct 31st 2008 at 03:26 pm 26

    to Hunter
    “who wants one of those…” (post #24)

    There are different categories of men looking for easy sex.
    The men your are talking about are those who don’t have the time or the energy or are too frustrated to play the hunting-game….or they lack the looks to catch an attractive woman through their own efforts, or they have problems with paying for sex, or the reason is anonimity etc. etc. Prostitutes are their only or their best option. The others will preferably chase after the so called hard to get women.
    Thanks for supporting my proposition.

27. Anisa Oct 31st 2008 at 03:42 pm 27

    correction on # 25: the ones who have problems with paying for sex are avoiding the prostitutes. They belong to the other category.

28. Lance Oct 31st 2008 at 06:21 pm 28

    I watched a youtube video on the same morning I read this post relating to tantra, and the speaker (female) said that men look for sex first and find love, women look for love first and get sex, and thus we have the battle of the sexes. Weird coincidence. I firmly believe it, though. Men are wired for the physical and physical intimacy first, emotional intimacy second, and we’re wishy washy on early commitment. I’m okay with that as long as we find common ground.

    I have frequently said in my dating profiles that I’m looking for casual dating and an LTR, depending on if the right gal came along, and it’s true. If you’re LTR material, I’ll go down that road. Otherwise, it’s sex only!!!

29. Hot Alpha Female Oct 31st 2008 at 07:54 pm 29

    I agree with a lot of the comments here.

    If you are a woman who needs commitment before sex, then be upfront with your date first.

    Dont sleep with him and then try and tell him that you don’t want to do it anymore until he commits, thats like blackmail.

    A similar quote that comes to mind that is related to this topic goes along the lines

    “Men trade commitment for sex. Women trade sex for commitment”

    Happens all the time. Now that’s not to say that all men just want sex and all women just want commitment.

    But these are the bargaining chips for negotiation.

    Hot Alpha Female

30. Bob S Nov 1st 2008 at 05:13 am 30

    I agree with Evan on this one. I’d like a long term relationship on most days, but other days I like being able to date whomever I feel like spending time with at the moment.

    As to sex, I’d prefer it to be with someone I really like and with whom I’m enjoying a monogamous relationship. That being said, I’ve done it on the first date one time, and not at all with others even after dating them on and off for 3 or 4 months. If I like you and we don’t have sex after several dates, I will still like you but will date you a lot less often.

    If I like you and we do have sex, I am likely to bond to you. If I like you a lot, we’ll almost certainly be exclusive for as long as the relationship lasts.

31. Michelle Nov 1st 2008 at 08:21 am 31

    A man may want you; but does he want you enough to be exclusive first and committed to that exclusivity. Can he embrace your emotions as well as your body? You shouldn’t have to wonder who else he’s with or who the chatty Patty is that’s texting him.

    A man may say he respects you; but does he respect you enough to honor you and make you number one, before he gets his physical needs met? His seeing additional women brings you no honor but shame.

    A man may say he loves you; but does he love you enough to make you his one and only for the rest of his life? Or would he prefer to just shack up with you in the name of his undying love?

    If not, then you know who you’re dealing with; and it’s entirely your call. Just don’t count on getting any more than your physical needs met.

32. Lila Nov 1st 2008 at 08:41 am 32

    A-L

    I totally agree with your idea of dating multiple men. I do the same thing, it helps me to not obsess about one guy. Plus, I think it might up the odds of actually meeting someone compatible, and eliminates the problem of spending too much time with the wrong guy.

    I have one guy who is all wrong for me as a booty call and several people that I continually date currently. It’s way easier this way, and if I meet someone with whom I know I undoubtedly share mutual interest, then I will commit but until then, forget it. I won’t waste my time anymore.

33. Anisa Nov 1st 2008 at 09:22 am 33

    I agree with Michelle.

    What is not there before sex will also not be there after the sex.

    And this: Many men want to sleep around with as many women as possible, because that seems to be man-ego-uplifting. But when it comes to LTR they prefer women who are virgin or practically virgin.

    Isn’t that weird??

34. hunter Nov 2nd 2008 at 06:21 am 34

    On post #32,

    Lila has a good “system” going..hhmmmhh..

35. hunter Nov 2nd 2008 at 06:27 am 35

    on post #33,

    Not all men like virgins for a LTR…

36. hunter Nov 2nd 2008 at 06:38 am 36

    to Anisa on post #26

    I like what you said, “They lack the looks to catch a good looking woman.” hhhmmmhh, looks don’t matter if she, needs to be rescued, usually, financially…..OMG!…….

37. Anisa Nov 2nd 2008 at 09:53 am 37

    I think this topic is fascinating.

    To Milena (post # 25)

    I think I am a little more optimistic than you. I believe that there are men who are not dogs. But you have to search very carefully for them, with a candle. And see the rest of them as victims. Victims of their own ego.

    And I think maybe I agree with you about Evans point of view. Although I like to read his blog, in my opinion he shows more respect for the phisical needs of men and less for the emotional needs of the women. That’s a pity. But you can’t blame him…he is a man.

38. Cilla Nov 5th 2008 at 10:30 am 38

    It’s been my experience that very few of the men I’m attracted to are willing to date a woman for 3 or 4 months (or even weeks, if they’re seeing each other frequently) without sleeping with her. I use the 3-4 month time frame, because I think that’s minimally how long it takes to really get to know someone and broach the topic of exclusivity for most couples. It seems like around date 3, men give the “if you won’t sleep with me, I’ll find someone who will” speech, or you just never hear from them again. I assume this is because of the touted “three date rule” that many women used to espouse.

    It’s nice to say that if a man won’t wait to sleep with you, he’s not worth dating, but this certainly seems to shrink the dating pool considerably, and it doesn’t sound realistic in today’s society.

    I can find “nice,” but socially awkward and sexually inexperienced guys who are willing to wait as long as I want, but frankly, I’m a little out of their league, and I’m not interested in dating them.

    Is there no middle ground? How about a sexually experienced guy who appreciates that I like sex too, but would prefer to wait a little to share it? Who understands waiting for sex is not blackmail or manipulation, just a little common sense? What happened to the old fashioned art of seduction and courting. I don’t think historically men were always able to gratify their “I want what I want in the moment” philosophy. Did the women’s liberation movement “screw the pooch” so to speak by making it too easy for men to skip the romance step?

39. Milena Nov 11th 2008 at 10:04 pm 39

    To Anisa (post # 37)

    I also believe that there are men who are not dogs but these man might not be compatible with me or there might not be any sparks in the air.
    I would not call them victims I would call them dogs. I love dogs but a dog is only a dog. You cannot expect much from him. A good training might help, so you better pick up a breed that has a reputation for being smart. lol

    I do not know and will never understand why Evan and the rest of male’s word justify their dishonesty. Why the physical needs of men are more important then emotional needs of the women?

    What if woman started to lie to man in order to have womans’ emotional needs fulfill?
    I can say to a guy yes we are in a relationship but at the same time I can be in other relationships with other man so all my emotional/other needs can be fulfill.

    Man are aware that they hurt woman and their behavior is jerky. When it comes to their sisters, mothers, and daughters, all of sudden man can see very clearly that leading/lying in order to get sex is not cool and there is no justification for it.

40. Milena Nov 11th 2008 at 10:16 pm 40

    To Cilla

    It’s been your experience that very few of the men that you are attracted to are willing to date a woman for 3 or 4 months (or even weeks, if they’re seeing each other frequently) without sleeping with her.

    What kind of guys do you like? and what do you mean frequently? like twice a week?
    I do not think is so hard. Once I find a guy that I am attracted to and he is to me usually he is willing to wait. But I do not meet with them more then once or twice a week.

41. Anisa Nov 12th 2008 at 10:24 am 41

    Milena (post # 39)
    THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT !!!!!
    I also think that Evan, because he is a man, likes to tell women that it is smart to compromise with the needs of the men. He is not that likely to teach men to consider the feelings and emotions of women. If he would do so I think no men would read his blog anymore. And it is a pity that many women are so insecure of themselves to act in the way a certain man prefer at a certain moment. Which is never contructive to their selfesteem. Men are allowed (encouraged) to do their “thing” and women are considered to modify their emotions and feelings and to brainwash theirselves to let things happen. Where is the balance??

42. Karl R Nov 12th 2008 at 02:29 pm 42

    Anisa said: (#41)
    “I also think that Evan, because he is a man, likes to tell women that it is smart to compromise with the needs of the men.”

    I don’t think that’s the point Evan is trying to make.

    Sunday night I was walking home from a jazz performance with a woman I’ve been dating for several weeks. During our conversation, I told her that thought she was cute and enjoyed spending time with her, but I didn’t expect our relationship to last over the long term because of the age difference between us. She responded, “I thought the same thing about the age difference, but I didn’t feel comfortable bringing up the topic.”

    NEWS FLASH: I didn’t feel comfortable bringing up the topic either. I felt completely uncomfortable about bringing up the topic.

    Following the conversation, she’s still interested in dating (non-exclusively), and she’s still interested in physical intimacy. Getting things out in the open allowed me to continue to enjoy her company, and continue to date women that might be better matches for LTRs, and maintain my integrity. All I had to do was bring up an uncomfortable topic of conversation. (However, I’m still worried that she might become too attached.)

    Evan likes to tell women and men that they can’t control the other person in the relationship. If you want to know where things stand (or if you want your partner to know where things stand), you can’t wait for the other person to bring up the topic. You have to bring up the uncomfortable topic yourself.

    Milena said: (#39)
    “Man are aware that they hurt woman….”

    This is not a fairy tale. People get hurt while dating — even when everyone has the best intentions and acts with integrity. I wasn’t very good at dating until I accepted the fact that I would get hurt repeatedly while dating. Once I decided that I could consciously take the risk of getting hurt, my dating life got much better.

    The women I date are mature adults. I assume that they are fully capable of consciously choosing to take the same risks that I do. It would be nice if they never got hurt. But I accept the reality that they might. More importantly, I respect them enough to allow them to make that choice for themselves.

43. queen Nov 12th 2008 at 07:19 pm 43

    ”So how are men supposed to navigate this space with any integrity?“

    Tell the truth… I want sex & fun for one night for a few weeks… or what have you… that would be how to “navigate with integrity”. Find women who are only interested in a fling. You will be rejected some of the time… (probably less than you should because many women have such low self esteem.)… and you deserve to be rejected by someone who really wants more than that.

    Most intelligent women can tell when a man is lying about this anyway. Sex as a power play of this sort is boring at best. If all you’re offering is sex… without anything else… that’s not really much to offer. Remember… we are women… we can generally get sex much more easily than men can.

    And the same goes for women, because men aren’t the only ones who behave this way… tell the truth.

    Women… take back your sexual power… you have been beaten down by centuries of patriarchal oppression… you are the ones with the power. Don’t let men walk all over you. Demand what you want from them in a relationship and accept nothing less.

44. Anisa Nov 13th 2008 at 01:09 am 44

    Very well said Queen!

    T Karl R: Just curious: how much was the woman older than you? Or was she much younger? and why should that be a problem?

45. Karl R Nov 13th 2008 at 07:57 am 45

    Anisa (#44),

    The woman is 11 years younger than me. She’s in her late 20’s; I’m in my late 30’s. It’s not purely an age issue. We’re at different stages of our lives, and there are differences in our maturity levels. To give one example, she’s living with her parents. I haven’t lived with my parents in over 20 years.

    Age isn’t necessarily an issue with that kind of age spread (in either direction), but the potential for it to be an issue is reasonably high … at least based on my past experiences. Among other things, the age difference created a power imbalance. The relationship wasn’t among equals (which is what I prefer). Either the older person had substantially greater influence over the relationship, or there was a perception that the older person had greater influence.

46. Michelle Nov 13th 2008 at 10:00 am 46

    ” I accept the reality that they might. More importantly, I respect them enough to allow them to make that choice for themselves.”

    …and to quote another famous player I know, “and what they do with their emotions is on them.”

    Or perhaps better stated: As long as they are willing to put out, if their heart is getting torn in two, that is their problem, as long as I’m fine and getting my needs met! Is more like it!

    What a crock…who needs communal cock or glock anyhow!

47. hunter Nov 13th 2008 at 05:58 pm 47

    to Queen on post #43,

    Really? A man can walk up to a woman and ask for a one night fling, and get one?……hhhmmmhh..LOL!…I don’t believe you…….If this statement were true, the marriage institution would no longer exist.

48. Milena Nov 13th 2008 at 06:12 pm 48

    To Karl

    I mean that man hurt woman intentionally, their are dishonest \. They hide their real motives. It is acting without integrity.

    I do not care if they want to have sex and fun that is fine but ling, misleading etc. is wrong.

    Listen honey. woman and man accept the reality that might get hurt. In dating and other areas of life.

    Life is risky almost every single activity involve risk to be hurt. I am not sure that I understood you. Are you giving man
    a license to hurt others or act without any consideration or integrity just because ” being hurt” is a part of life.

49. hunter Nov 13th 2008 at 11:21 pm 49

    Hi Michelle, on post #46

    A famous player really said that?…..huh…Do you mean like, a successful(wealthy) player?………That kind will never bow to servitude in a relationship.

50. Karl R Nov 14th 2008 at 12:25 pm 50

    Michelle: (#46)
    Let me turn the situation around. Let’s say we meet online (it could happen) and start dating. After dating for a few weeks, I’ve decided that you’re wonderful and want a long-term relationship with you. But you’ve decided that I’m not really your type, and you’d rather not continue the relationship.

    Under those circumstances, it’s likely that my feelings will be hurt when you break things off. Is it your fault if my “heart is getting torn in two”?

    As long as you acted with integrity (i.e. you didn’t deceive me during the relationship and you weren’t malicious when you broke things off), I would say that my pain is not your fault.

    You might feel bad that I got hurt (I certainly feel bad when a woman I’ve been dating gets hurt), but you can’t base your relationship decisions around that. Would you stay in a relationship with a man that you didn’t like just to avoid hurting his feelings? Would you avoid getting into a relationship in the first place to avoid the chance of hurting his feelings?

    And if you even suspect that the person your dating is a player who has no regard for your emotions, don’t “put out”.

    —————–

    Milena: (#46)
    I think my above comments pretty much answered your question, and it sounds like we basically agree on that point.

    To put it explicitly, I’d like to see everyone act with integrity, but I recognize some people won’t. There’s nothing I can do about that.

    Regarding “permission” in this sort of circumstance, I had to give a couple of my ex-girlfriends my permission to stop feeling guilty that I might have gotten hurt when they broke things off with me. (Their guilt lasted a lot longer than my pain.)

51. Karl R Nov 14th 2008 at 12:51 pm 51

    hunter said: (#47)
    “Really? A man can walk up to a woman and ask for a one night fling, and get one?”

    Yes, men can do it. The technique is called shotgunning. Walk around a bar and ask enough women to have sex with you, and one of them will say yes. The better looking you are, the fewer the number of women you’ll need to ask. If you’re a 6 or lower in the looks department, this might not work for you.

    Regardless of your looks, you will get slapped by some of the women.

    “LOL!…I don’t believe you…….If this statement were true, the marriage institution would no longer exist.”

    You think people get married in order to have sex? A well known comedian said, “Getting married for sex is like buying an airplane for free peanuts. If that’s what you want, there’s cheaper ways to get it.”

52. hunter Nov 15th 2008 at 12:22 am 52

    to Karl,

    Yes, I have heard women say most single men are a 6 and lower.

    On the second response, how true!….I have heard that almost 30% of marriages are sexless…..

53. Anisa Nov 15th 2008 at 09:13 am 53

    to Hunter,

    It seems to me that you can not see the difference between sex and love. I wonder why you are so very cynic and pessimistic about this issue.
    If you don’t believe in life lasting bond between a man and a woman based on love and trust, I doubt you will find it.
    But it seems to me you are not looking for that or have you give up hope already?

54. hunter Nov 15th 2008 at 01:55 pm 54

    Anisa, aaahhh, you are a sweetheart……. I am like the parrot, I only repeat what I hear. I mean, what do I know?…..

55. Anisa Nov 16th 2008 at 05:32 am 55

    to Hunter,

    May I quote you?

    #13: Your two friendships won’t get complicated, until, you have sex with them.
    #19: I don’t think they earn time in the “sack”, that is why they are called “nice” guys.
    #24: ”……..usually the married women that need to be financially rescued(and who wants one of those?) or if they are single, in a much smaller pool of availability….if things were as you say, we wouldn’t hear herds of single men howling in the streets at 2:00a.m., on weekends, after the bars close…..
    #36: looks don’t matter if she, needs to be rescued, usually, financially…..
    #47: I don’t believe you…….If this statement were true, the marriage institution would no longer exist.
    #49: Do you mean like, a successful(wealthy) player?………That kind will never bow to servitude in a relationship.
    #52: I have heard that almost 30% of marriages are sexless…..
    …………….
    So, I don’t think this is just a parrot repeating. This is someone who “knows” a lot and has a strong (and also cynic and pessimistic)opinion. And who also has a very conspicuous way to look at women and relationships.

    But maybe this is too personal for this discussion.

56. Michelle Nov 16th 2008 at 08:30 pm 56

    Karl R (#50),

    To answer your question in earnest, no I would not stay in a relationship not hurt a guys feelings.

    Neither would I start that relationship by talking about being married, and telling him he was different from any other guy I ever knew. I wouldn’t tell him I thought he was gonna be married, and ask him where he might like to spend his honeymoon?

    I wouldn’t show up to his church, sign up for classes there. Go on long walks, bike rides, picnics, and have repeated tender all night embracing intimate sex with him. Then once he told me he loved me, inform he I am doing two other guys and only wanted FWB, knowing full well he would do anything for me at this point.

    Then once he agreed (which perhaps a guy even in love would never do), however bare with me…Once he agreed I couldn’t let things go on knowing he was completely in love with me, just as much as the other two guys I was doing and continue to live in my own skin!

    You see girls don’t just put out…they usually get sucked in once they are emotionally hooked and physically addicted to the oxytocin or whatever. Then there’s that crazy little thing called love, that can make you do anything for that person. Only those who have been there know what I am talking about.

    I am just glad I finally woke up fro the 2yr. spell I was under and
    am able to see a brighter future and a better day!

    Hunter(#49) I’m sorry I should have said ‘infamous’, or ‘notorious’~but definitely not wealthy!

57. Robin Nov 17th 2008 at 05:07 am 57

    Comment: Michelle #56

    Girlriend! You have hit the proverbial nail on the HEAD! I had the same sh*t happen to me as you have described. I was devastated. HELLO! Did that f**ker need to start telling me after one month that he was in love with me? Hell, no. I told him to stop, but NO, that a-hole was on a mission to suck me in. After a while, you are right, the whole oxywhatsis kicks in and our own DNA just screws us over. Is there a way to override that crap? Cause if so, I want a prescription! LOL. I love you Michelle, you’re hysterical!

58. Michelle Nov 17th 2008 at 07:25 pm 58

    Comment:ROBIN (#57)

    His name didn’t happen to be Greg did it?
    Because sure enough one of the other two girls i mentioned was named Robin!….Hmmm???

59. Robin Nov 18th 2008 at 04:50 am 59

    Comment: Michelle #58

    No, you can rest your mind…I was the hapless victim of another one named Robert. The place is just littered with ‘em girlfriend… LOL

60. Michelle Nov 18th 2008 at 10:18 am 60

    Comment: Robin (#59)

    Good 2 know!~Lol I believe Robin is still under the oxytocin spell anyhow!

    As far as the litter situation is concerned, I believe they must all subscribe to the same narcissistic manual! All I can say is ladies wanting a relationship keep your wits about you from the jump, and call them on the exclusivity clause (before hand) or no dice. Then stand your ground no matter what or walk away (or should I say RUN)~ if need be!!

61. Lynn Nov 18th 2008 at 09:13 pm 61

    In Response to Michelle from Comment #60,

    In a way, I agree with you when you say, ” . . . . ladies wanting a relationship keep your wits about you from the jump, and call them on the exclusivity clause (before hand) or no dice.”

    But I think it’s really hard to ask for exclusivity if a couple has only dated 3 or 4 times. Then one might think, better to hold off on the sexual intimacy, until everyone is comfortable with exclusivity, but I don’t think this is necessarily effective either. Seems like there is an element of “gambling” on a guy to see if he works out to be relationship material.

62. hunter Nov 19th 2008 at 10:49 pm 62

    to anisa on #55,

    Cynic and pessimistic? OMG!………..Conspicuous…..hhmmmhh…..I used to have an instant response for almost anything I heard,,,,when I was a teenager…

63. Michelle Nov 20th 2008 at 07:44 am 63

    To Lynn (#61)

    I don’t care how many times you dated. If he starts wanting to get down to business and become sexually intimate, you have every right to put your prerequisites out on the table. It’s a matter of speak now or forever hold your peace…believe me!

    I am saying if you choose to go ahead and be intimate with a man, before making exclusivity the prerequisite, you loose all bartering chips! I waited till afterwards to say I won’t share, and he knew that was a joke!-Trust me I said NEVER and I learned the hard way: NEVER say NEVER, because you just don’t know what you’re capable of till you’re there!

    Anyhow the only way to for a man to show he wants you (and only you) as bad as he says, is to make him prove it first! That includes making sure he deletes all the chics numbers in his cell phone, and and his exes are really his exes and his friends are not all women with benefits.

    If a guy really wants you as bad as he says, trust me those gals need 2 be history, or you’ll just wind up another one of them, who he either disrespects or recycles, or he’ll walk all over you and won’t take you seriously. And you will be so strung out on oxytocin you wont’ be able to do jack, and you’ll only be fighting an uphill battle to get him to see the light, which ain’t ever gonna happen. Feel me?

64. JuJu Nov 20th 2008 at 10:18 am 64

    That’s some dogmatic thinking.

65. Honey Nov 20th 2008 at 11:18 am 65

    @Michelle (#63): the problem with telling a guy that he has to take the gamble and cut all other women out of his life completely (while you apparently watch him delete numbers from his cell phone, which seems a little over the top and potentially psychotic to me, as I’m sure it would to most men) before you’ll sleep with him, is that it’s really no different from him asking you to take a gamble and sleep with him before the exclusivity talk before he’ll cut those other women out of his life. As long as both parties are being so rigid, no one’s ever going to find anything out.

    It seems to me that the appropriate compromise is a) the woman gives up a little bit on her perspective by not attaching so much meaning to the first few months of the relationship, regardless of whether it’s sexual, and b) the man gives up a little bit on his perspective by using a condom until everyone’s been tested 3-6 months after you HAVE agreed to become exclusive. The way you suggest is only going to lead to him thinking you’re crazy or you ending up with a doormat. Neither really appeals to me.

66. Michelle Nov 20th 2008 at 12:34 pm 66

    Honey (#65)

    I am only advocating for those who are looking for a relationship that is connected and functional and not just at the pelvis.

    A guy usually pushes for sex and doesn’t spend enough time exploring the actual potential relationship. As long as both parties are having hot sex on a regular basis, no one is gonna find out much that way either, except how much they enjoy the thrill of titanic chemistry!

    As far as the cell phone thing goes: How can a woman take a guy seriously who is texting and talking to other women in her presence, and who maintains emotionally intimate (and/or sexual) relationships with other women. Is it so irrational (or psycho) to insist he sever all ties if he wants her to take him seriously, and not just spread her legs for the sake of exploration?

    BTW. Condoms can slip off inside and/or break, in case you’ve never had the experience (not too appealing)! And neither does it appeal to me to have to get tested for STD’s in 3-6 month as you describe.

67. Honey Nov 20th 2008 at 01:40 pm 67

    Michelle (66), I’m just wondering what his incentive is to trust you if you’re assuming the worst about him from the beginning? And even if you and the guy decide to be exclusive, you need to get tested before you decide to be exclusive and again 3-6 months in anyway, and once a year after that. That’s just taking care of your health.

    I guess the thing I am reacting negatively too is treating an individual guy (that you like and are thinking about committing to) like an entire group of slimeball guys (who aren’t even in the majority anyway). More guys are nice than not. More guys will respect your decision than not. I think you can achieve the results you want in a playful, productive way that isn’t so bitter and confrontational.

    I had sex with my boyfriend on our first date and he never went on another one! We are over 2.5 years in, living together and saving for a wedding. That never would have happened if I had acted in the way you describe.

68. JuJu Nov 20th 2008 at 02:17 pm 68

    Michelle and others,

    your convictions do not demonstrate power, only weakness.

    Any attempt at control is always a manifestation of frailty of one’s psyche.

69. Robin Nov 20th 2008 at 03:27 pm 69

    Comment: JuJu #68

    I really like your comment JuJu.

    If I could add to that, I would say, more specifically, that any attempt to control another person’s actions comes from a place of fear, not a place of love or inspiration, and therefore is doomed to failure.

    When a person is very confident in who they are, they don’t have a need to control anyone. And anyway, the only thing we can truly control is our our behavior.

    Pick friends and lovers who lift you up emotionally. That’s the way to get more confident. Then you will fly. You will have no more use for these kind of low-vibrational creatures anymore. LOL

70. Michelle Nov 20th 2008 at 05:17 pm 70

    I do not try to control anyone’s actions. I only set healthy boundaries for myself and make sure they are respected by others. However, I no longer allow anyone to manipulate my emotions. I am not fearful or bitter, just wiser from the wear. I live my life with arms wide open and my motto is always the best is yet to come!

71. Anisa Nov 21st 2008 at 11:03 am 71

    If women would respect each other and each others opinion a little more, it would help also.
    I don’t like the judging part in Juju’s 68:”…. demonstrate only weakness.” and “….. is always a manifestation of frailty of one’s psyche.
    I think it is Michelle’s experience and her point of view. I think she has a point.
    Very few men are likely t o commit, in general. Most of the free guys are free because they are not likely to commit. And they will not commit because the quality of the sex. If they get the sex without commitment they have even less reasons to commit.
    Honey was lucky. Her partner was a guy who was willing and ready to commit anyway. Not because of the sex.
    It is always a combination of the true intentions and the chemistry.

72. Honey Nov 21st 2008 at 12:31 pm 72

    I agree with JuJu and Robin. Being wary of the motives of others is different from trying to exert pre-emptive control over someone when you do not yet have a right or expectation to do so.

73. hunter Nov 22nd 2008 at 10:25 pm 73

    To anisa on post #71,

    I think you left out of your list two types of men that don’t commit, the type that is just simply, “uninformed”. Herds of men were never told about their sexuality.(some head shrinks don’t know how to handle this kind, really….) Also how about the kind that was traumatized as a youngster, disabling/emotionally paralyzing/castrating him emotionally, as an adult.

74. JuJu Nov 23rd 2008 at 08:09 pm 74

    Thanks for the support, guys. =)

    BTW, Robin, your “heart of glass” comment in another thread made me recall this quote, how we treat our bodies so destructively, yet are ever so protective of our feelings - the one thing that can never get sick, deteriorate, break, or die.

    

75. hunter Nov 23rd 2008 at 09:22 pm 75

    “so protective of our feelings, the one thing that can never get sick, deteriorate, break or die.” What an interesting statement. I have to write this in my book of “quotes”.

76. Anisa Nov 24th 2008 at 01:45 pm 76

    Oke Hunter (post 73), now we are talking! (and post 75)
    I always wondered: Why are so many “self-coaching” books written for women, while men are also (maybe even more) in need for “reparation”?
    A young woman told me a while ago: “the fact is: a woman can repeatedly recover after a broken-heart. But men…..their heart can break only once ……..”

77. vino Nov 25th 2008 at 04:43 am 77

    Jeeze Louise, I’m not going to quantify the number of comments above, but the overall tone of this thread is that men are so inferior for not approaching things as women do.

    Perhaps neither paradigm is right. Perhaps neither is wrong. But assuming your way is the only way in this arena seems a bit limiting (and potentially very off putting).

    OTOH, it’s nice to see some acknowledging dating for the bartering transaction it’s historically been…

78. hunter Dec 7th 2008 at 10:57 pm 78

    on post #76

    Some men are crushed after getting out of a relationship.(some won’t bare their soul, while in a relationship)

79. Anisa Dec 13th 2008 at 01:44 am 79

    So many men, proudly claiming to be a hunter.
    In fact, they are a victim ………

80. starthrower68 Dec 13th 2008 at 04:24 pm 80

    Oh this is rich, LOL! Adultfriend finder is too sleazy, but keeping one’s mouth shut to get laid is just “being in the moment”? Listen guys, I truly don’t mean that as a dig, because they are plenty of disingenuous women out there, too. What I am saying is a woman is wise to take what a guy says with a grain of salt until she sees action that backs it up. Like Evan says in another post, don’t do anything. Sit back and see what he does. Ladies, you are in no way obligated to have sex with a man if you don’t want to. And if he rejects you for it, it’s his problem NOT YOURS!

81. starthrower68 Dec 14th 2008 at 11:19 am 81

    I will step out on the proverbial “limb” and agree with vino on the point he makes about “assuming your way is the only way” correct, even though that is a reality we don’t really like to face. I know I’m not Evan and I’m not the dating coach, but ladies, I want to get across that you do have power; is it to change him? No. Does power mean it always goes your way? Nope. Wisdom is knowledge and knowledge is power. Anytime a dating situation doesn’t go the way you want it to, you are free to leave it. Look, I’m not being critical; I’ve done what a lot of women do. Real power comes in accepting you can’t change someone but knowing you have the freedom to walk away from that which you do not believe is good for you.

82. starthrower68 Dec 14th 2008 at 09:10 pm 82

    This subject is so fascinating to me that I keep coming back to it because I’ve been mulling it over and I keep getting these little revelations. I go back to Robin’s #2 post. While I understand the spirit of the question, what’s to change? Women are relational creatures, and the desire to love a man and be loved by a man is a legitimate desire. Yes, we do need them which is why God created them. But like all things, it’s to be approached with wisdom. Proverbs 4:23 says, “keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life”. Realize that while we love men, the real “meat and potatoes” of life are our relationships with our families and friends. That is the first place to turn for our emotional and relational needs. Am I saying that men are irrevelant? Absolutely not. But until you know his intentions, guard your hearts. You can be warm and open while still being self-protective. It about balance.

83. hunter Dec 14th 2008 at 10:21 pm 83

    on post #79

    Oh, yes, we are victims…….we are only tough on the outside……OMG!….

84. Anisa Dec 15th 2008 at 01:53 pm 84

    And what do victims do? ………
    They make victims …….

85. starthrower68 Dec 15th 2008 at 05:43 pm 85

    RE: 83 84: LOL! Play nice kids!

    I what Evan says that man feels like he’s in a “Catch 22″ when it comes to looking for sex and finding love and men are just being in the moment. We can spend countless hours refuting the morality or the logic of it, which is pointless because it won’t change. And it is equally true that women face the same thing. On the one hand, if she does not agree to sex without exclusivity, that situation will probably not go anywhere. On the other hand, if she does agree, she will probably lose the man’s respect for compromising, being seen as easy, needy, or whatever. So, the $64 is how reconcile the differences.

86. starthrower68 Dec 15th 2008 at 06:25 pm 86

    That would be “I see what Evan says” and “$64 thousand dollar question” . I thought I had proofread that well enough. I must be tired from staying up working on my paper.

87. hunter Dec 15th 2008 at 07:25 pm 87

    OMG!………

88. hunter Dec 15th 2008 at 07:41 pm 88

    Starthrower on post #81

    You said, “Wisdom is knowledge and knowledge is power”. Many times I wonder if r’ships are all about “knowledge/Information”……hhhmmh.

89. Anisa Dec 16th 2008 at 04:29 am 89

    To react on your “wondering”, Hunter:

    It is all about knowledge about chemistry, DNA, your self-esteem, your history, expectations, risks, morals, ego’s(!), weaknesses, strenghts, humanity, energy’s, motivation, responsibility (!), wishes, desires, dreams, common sense, persistence, Mars, Venus, etc. etc. etc….. too much for one lifetime.

    and please don’t react with “OMG!…..”

90. Kenley Dec 16th 2008 at 07:57 am 90

    I re-read the question and Evan’s answer, and I realized that a lot of men — not all — do tell women what they want — through both words and actions. I think many women just ignore what they don’t like.

91. Seductress Within Dec 16th 2008 at 10:33 am 91

    Kenley, you’re right. Some women do ignore the verbal and non-verbal messages men send thinking they can change his feelings or turn something casual into something serious.

    Anytime a woman begins a dating situation with sex she must assume it is casual and expect nothing more. If she’s pleasantly surprised, great.

    The problem is that a woman’s feelings become engaged when she is sexual and she starts to look for validation that she is special and not just a lay.
    End result, the guy feels her edging toward a relationship and runs. And no matter how much a woman tells herself that she’s cool with hooking up, it never feels good to share your body with men and then get dumped.

    It’s simple-Don’t have sex so soon if you want a relationship…

92. starthrower68 Dec 16th 2008 at 06:49 pm 92

    Kenley & Seductress,

    You both make very good points. It’s difficult to remain objective once a situation reaches that point. I’m not saying it can’t be done but it’s not easy.

    To respond to Hunter, I would say at the early stages, a woman is smart to keep things in an “information gathering” stage. That’s not to say attraction isn’t an element, but a wise woman will not get carried away with that.

93. starthrower68 Dec 16th 2008 at 06:50 pm 93

    BTW, Hunter, what I mean by “information gathering” phase is not that she grills him like its the Spanish Inquisition. She should learn by observation.