Sep04
My Catholic Boyfriend Refuses to Have Sex With Me. Should I Try to Seduce Him?
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I’m 25, and Jewish but totally secular and non-practicing. I’ve been dating a Catholic guy for about two months. I knew he was Catholic at the outset, but I didn’t know quite how Catholic. Well, he’s pretty damn Catholic. I’m fine with the whole Jesus thing, but this guy doesn’t believe in pre-marital sex! But I really like him and want to be in a relationship with him. But…I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t believe in pre-marital sex! So I have a dilemma. I keep thinking that I can convince him, rationally, that the Catholic ban on pre-marital sex is a stupid, pointless anachronism that is not relevant to today’s world. He’s intelligent and educated and responds to reason; I think I have a shot at changing his mind. I’ve told him very explicitly that I think his beliefs are wrong and I plan to try to change his mind. He seems fine with that.
I mean, in some sense I’m tempted to just try and seduce him. (We haven’t done more than make out, at this point.) But I wouldn’t feel right about that, and I wouldn’t want to sleep with him if he would feel guilty or regret it afterwards.
I guess my question is, do you think it’s possible to talk to him about of it? Is it disrespectful to someone’s religion to set about convincing them that they’re wrong? (I really don’t respect religion very much, but I try not to be polite about it.) And, finally, even if I were to convince him and we did have sex, would he be constantly plagued by lingering guilt and fear due to the years of brainwashing he’s experienced? Is there hope for my project, or should I try to find someone whose beliefs are more compatible with mine? He’s really really great aside from the whole religion thing, and I think there’s serious potential here.
Just as background, he had a serious girlfriend for two and a half years. They never had intercourse, but did have oral sex, and he’s said he was "never really comfortable with it". He’s dated a few other girls but never so much as kissed them. So I take the fact that he’s willing to kiss me as an indication that he must like me…
Julia
Implicit in believing your own bullshit is the idea that people who disagree with you are WRONG.
I’m running your letter, Julia, because it’s a nice tie-in to the emails from virgins who are wrestling with their anachronistic worldview. You and me, Julia – we’ll corrupt all of their minds one of these days!
I’m kidding, of course, because, as you know, it is not your job to change anybody’s mind. I give advice for a living and, frankly, I don’t see it as MY job to change anybody’s mind. The difference between us, Julia, is that people come and ask me for advice because something isn’t working in their life. They’re looking for clarity, perspective, a kick in the ass. The Catholic guy isn’t looking for ANY of that with you. He isn’t asking you for spiritual guidance – he’s asking you to enjoy spending time with him and consider a life partnership. Thus, imposing your evolved point of view against his “brainwashing” is somewhat of an exercise in arrogance.
Believe me, I know. I’ve been called arrogant more than once, mostly because I so strongly believe in my views and can ably articulate them. However, implicit in believing your own bullshit is the idea that people who disagree with you are WRONG. And even if you’re an secular atheist Jew like me, it is certainly not your place to tell anyone in the world that they need to come around to your way of thinking. In fact, it sounds like a colossal waste of time and energy….
Continued on next page >>Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice
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andrea Sep 4th 2008 at 08:35 am 1
Right on, Jew-brother.
This is one of those letters that makes me think, “Is she for real?”
If you don’t have the same beliefs and you can’t accept his, break up. It’s only going to cause problems later. Not to mention, that you’re not accepting him for who he is. Jews and gentiles break up over different beliefs all the time. Heck, people of the same religion break up over differing beliefs. Dating is hard enough.
DO NOT TRY TO CHANGE HIM.
Selena Sep 4th 2008 at 08:50 am 2
Amen Evan.
Honey Sep 4th 2008 at 08:56 am 3
Ouch. But as an atheist myself who is finally with someone who feels the same way, I don’t think that I could ever go back to someone who didn’t share my values.
Lance Sep 4th 2008 at 09:56 am 4
Well said. Religion is generally something I don’t touch when dating…in other words, I screen them out automatically. I’m athiest, I strongly believe in premarital sex, and I think religious values when it comes to sex, dating, and courtship are badly anachronistic. I also believe in whatever floats your boat. So if you’re Catholic and want to wait, great, whatever makes you happy.
I have to mention though that I had an LTR, when I was much younger, with a devout Catholic and I “convinced” her to have premarital sex. There was no seduction, she simply changed her mind after our many debates. She ended up being totally fine with it and had sex with all of her subsequent partners. It’s certainly possible to affect someone’s values and have it come out positive, I just shy away from it.
BeenThruTheWars Sep 4th 2008 at 11:24 am 5
You’ve been dating a short time. You’re the woman. You’re pressuring your man to have sex with you when he’s made it clear he doesn’t want to go beyond kissing. So not only are you ridiculing some of his most deeply cherished beliefs, and even considering trickery and seduction to MAKE him discard those beliefs and bend to your will, you are also determined to run the show in the bedroom.
I don’t see this working for a whole lot of reasons. He sounds a lot more mature and together than you do. Keep doing what you’re doing, and you’re gonna blow things with him (and I’m not talking about oral sex). Evan gave you great advice. If you can’t accept this man for all of who he is — not “tolerate” him, but truly accept him — then toss this fishie back and look elsewhere. Even if he does stick with you, you’re going to wind up making him miserable in the long run.
lrigecin Sep 4th 2008 at 11:35 am 6
You gave her some really good advice. As a woman (over 30) who has waited to be married, I can tell you he will probably come to resent you. I know I felt and feel that way towards guys who have been the same with me. I never try to convince someone that my way is the right way. My friends, family, etc. are free to make their own choices (and yes I was raised Catholic). However, this is an important issue for me and one that I won’t compromise. If the guy I’m dating feels differently and premaritical sex is an important part of a relationship for him, I expect him to be mature and say so upfront and let both of us go on to someone more compatible. (Not that I bring it up on the first date - but when it is appropriate for where the relationship is heading). However, not all guys will respect that - they try to hang on because they think they can change my mind or want to “bag the virgin.” With these guys, sometimes I did the mature thing and just said that we weren’t compatible and broke it off. Other times, I intentionally upset them so much just to get back at how badly I thought and felt they treated me. In other words, this is a mean game you’re playing and the results could really end up hurting you. I’m now dating a nice man (also over 30) who agrees with me about premarital sex. In other words, there are better fits for both of you if both of you feel very strongly about what’s next in the relationship before marriage. You don’t want him to end up hating you because you tried to seduce him or kept insulting him treating him like he is backward or worse because he compromised his integrity and blames you for his downfall.
Paul Sep 4th 2008 at 12:01 pm 7
Evan,
that is the best response I have ever heard from you, in a along line of excellent responses I might add. Sounds to me like that nice, Christian virgin ought to be dumping her! She isn’t worth much more of his consideration and she certainly is showing her colors. He should never consider marrying her as unevenly yoked as they’d be. But my guess is he knows that, and despite his constantly be told he’s wrong in his views, or at least being thought of as wrong, it’s amazing he’s stayed around as long as he has. Hats off to him, whoever he is, and a slap on the old proverbial back for standing up for what he believes is right. And I totally agree with him btw…I’ve been married twice and don’t have quite the testosterone running through my veins as a 25 year old, and I have a hard time living pure, I can’t imagine what it would be like for a 25 year old virgin, to keep the virginity I mean. I. on the other hand, know what I’m missing…purhaps it’s easier to not know. But I have found that whatever is the prevailing political correctness, usually the opposite is truely correct. God clearly wants us to save ourselves for marriage for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is our own safety. I guess you’d have to be into that whole “Jesus thing”. To each his (or her) own, but I vote for the guy here…he sounds like a quality individual - more of the likes we need in this country.
Best of luck with your marriage Evan!
Paul
satexaslady Sep 4th 2008 at 12:22 pm 8
Very well said, Evan. Religion is important to people and Julia, your attitude is incredibly disrespectful towards someone you profess to care about. I’m a bit bothered with how callously you disregard his feelings and beliefs. You have a right to your feelings, but he does as well…He was willing to open up enough to you to admit that he was uncomfortable with oral sex. Unless you left something out, it seems he is willing to accept your position without condition. Either be willing to compromise or leave. It’s not fair to him. I’m not Jewish nor am I Catholic, but I have been on the receiving of the scenario Evan outlined to you. I was fine with his more conservative religious views. He was not fine with my more liberal views on religion and wanted to me to accept his views. I simply told him I was unwilling to do so. I was told I was going to hell. That’s his problem, not mine. You cannot force someone to believe as you do and you should not be so rude as to try to. It’s wrong.
Robert Sep 4th 2008 at 12:50 pm 9
Julia, this man may be the greatest thing since sliced bread but it sounds like you two are a bad match. As much as you enjoy each other’s company, your sexual attitudes are incompatible. That’s enough reason for you to get out of the relationship. There’s no right or wrong here. Just two people who are incompatible in one very important part of their relationship. Good luck.
Robert
Honestamente Sep 4th 2008 at 02:42 pm 10
JULIA, JULIA
She is soo lucky to find him, can she write his mail address (we want that guy for aur group), not everybody is dirty . I hope he open his eyes and move away from her. How about is we ask her to eat ” pork” in a FUN party night Julia , do you feel great with that idea?
Cute Redhead Sep 4th 2008 at 04:33 pm 11
I just want us all to remember this guy when someone starts going off on how “men” are and how “women” are regarding sex, marriage, birth control, etc. Clearly this guy is not into uncommitted sex and she is–breaks the stereotype. And there are men and women from other cultures, religions, and countries who bring different ways of doing the dating/mating thing to the table, too. There is no one way that works for everyone — it’s very individual. Let’s all please remember this before we go spouting generalizations about gender and sexual/relationship behavior.
downtowngal Sep 4th 2008 at 05:16 pm 12
“it is certainly not your place to tell anyone in the world that they need to come around to your way of thinking… ” Intersting you should say that Evan because in 2 recent letters, when it was a woman virgin writing in you advised each one to compromise her beliefs.
Are you saying that guys can’t change but women should? Or am I misinterpreting the messages?
I actually agree with you re: Julia. These two are young and it sounds as if they are incompatable in some ways that they may not be able to work out.
Ron Sep 4th 2008 at 10:02 pm 13
Cute Redhead - you hit the nail on the head. I’m waiting for JuJu to come along with her “he’s not a real man” insinuations.
After all, any man who is sensitive and will not drop his drawers at the drop of a hat and do his part to spread VD is no man at all.
hunter Sep 5th 2008 at 07:04 am 14
to Julia,
Your man may not have been comfortable receiving oral, from his ex girlfriend, because she may have been terrible at it. I have been with divorced women that I have to keep reminding, all night, that a BJ is an expression, you don’t really do it. It is almost as if a woman can’t hear when she is in the sex act. Sometimes I say “ouch” or “that hurts” and they still don’t listen. Women wonder why I don’t stay for breakfast, the next morning!…..If your man has had, bad sexual experiences, he most likely, won’t have sex with you…..
Steve Sep 5th 2008 at 07:21 am 15
@Cute Redhead, post #11
The existence of a small number of anomalies does not make a generalization untrue. It only means that instead of saying that ALL apples are red you say that MANY, if not MOST apples are red.
No, the apple talk is not code for some kind of sexual thing
Steve Sep 5th 2008 at 07:22 am 16
@Lance, Honey & Evan. It is nice with everything going on in the country and the world to run across three atheists in one place.
Cathouse Teri Sep 5th 2008 at 07:28 am 17
This isn’t a case of whether or not he refuses to wear black socks with his dress shoes. These are beliefs that make up a large part of his person. Julia is being very disrespectful and deceiving in first, not accepting him for who he is and who he isn’t and second, for not revealing who she is and who she isn’t.
Two major problems in people making bad relationship choices. Not genuinely offering up our REAL side and thinking we can change someone. I consider overcoming both of these things to be huge milestones in the world of grown ups. Julia’s got some growing up to do.
Honey Sep 5th 2008 at 08:08 am 18
@Steve, #16–right on! The BF is an atheist, too, and I can think of at least two other friends
mic Sep 5th 2008 at 11:56 am 19
Is it okay to seduce into sexual activity an unmarried, no-sex-before-marriage type? Is it okay to deliberately ‘forget’ to use birth control with someone who doesn’t want a child now? Perhaps being on the receiving end of that is a pitfall for a good-looking person. Perhaps people should learn to better read cues of character from appearance, as limited a help as that is.
Damie Sep 5th 2008 at 07:00 pm 20
Maybe he’s gay?… WHAT?!… someone had to say it.
JuJu Sep 5th 2008 at 07:14 pm 21
And why would I insinuate that?
Flattered by the attention, though.
hunter Sep 5th 2008 at 10:07 pm 22
Many, many, guys, do not know how to seduce a woman…..
starthrower68 Sep 6th 2008 at 06:33 am 23
I find it interesting that we choose someone who we know is polar opposite of us from the outset, then think we will change them to our way of thinking when we’re inconvienced by their convictions. This fellow has very firm boundaries in place and those are to be respected, not crossed. And, I will no doubt catch flack from the atheists, being pentocostal myself, but I think this guy is to be congratulated by standing on his faith. When you commit to that, the world doesn’t like it. Believe me, I know from experience!
Cute Redhead Sep 6th 2008 at 07:18 am 24
Steve, #15: But if you’re looking for a yellow apple and someone is telling you that they don’t exist based on the predominance of red apples and, furthermore, that you have to change/give up/are weird because you want the yellow apple — well, you can imagine that that type of attitude would be annoying, especially when you, the yellow apple, have experience that supports your POV. When you are a minority yellow apple you tend to notice other yellow apples. When you are one of the predominant red apples, you tend not to notice the yellow apples because you get lots of support in believing that your way is “the way it is.”
We all get to want what we want.
Cute Redhead Sep 6th 2008 at 07:21 am 25
And I, for my part, only need one exception to the “rule” — I don’t need a million guys who support it.
hunter Sep 6th 2008 at 08:51 am 26
To Julia,
Yes, if you are that attracted to him!…
Marc Sep 8th 2008 at 02:58 pm 27
Julia - Wouldn’t your parents be much happier anyway if you weren’t having sex with a devout Jew?
Heed the advice of EMK. “Implicit in believing your own bullshit is the idea that people who disagree with you are WRONG.” — They should put that on a T-shirt!
Selena Sep 9th 2008 at 05:57 am 28
Marc-
Yes, that sentence would be terrific on a T-shirt!
I’m copying that phrase down. I just know I will have occasions to use it. Maybe even on myself, lol.
Steve Sep 9th 2008 at 07:37 am 29
Steve Sep 9th 2008 at 07:45 am 30
“Implicit in believing your own bullshit is the idea that people who disagree with you are WRONG.”
I have no problem with that. If I thought there was more than a passing possibility that a belief could be wrong, I would believe it in the first place.
In regards to religion, most people do not feel the need to be carefully agnostic about the existence of Thor. The reason for that is Thor is part of a culture that is past. Yahweh & Jesus are part of several current cultures.
IMHO, I don’t need to respect religious beliefs as serious contenders of truth in order to respect the feelings of people who hold those beliefs.
We live in a diverse world and what comes around goes around so I think the latter is of prime importance.
I judge a persons religion or their beliefs by how well they accept that fact and how well they play with others.
JuJu Sep 13th 2008 at 09:46 pm 31
All right, I finally found the time to read the article and all the comments.
While I don’t see cause for hunter’s conclusion in post 14, I can unfortunately relate to the sentiment. Some of my less enjoyable sexual experiences were with men who were more than willing to go down on me - sounds just fantastic in theory, doesn’t it? Only they were hopelessly bad at it. The ultimate kicker was that TELLING them how I want (well, need, really) it done, did NOT help - they were just not able to adjust their techniques.
But my views on the myopia of holding off till marriage are [apparently] widely known on these boards anyway.
Now, Ron, I don’t know why you keep bringing std’s into every discussion, but I do have to wonder if there is some sort of pathology here. One poster already mentioned the possibility of homosexuality. I just found myself thinking: his religious beliefs notwithstanding, what does he do about his sex drive? Afaik, masturbation is a big no-no in every major religion as well.
And us atheist Jews couldn’t care less about pork, Honestamente.
hunter Sep 14th 2008 at 11:32 am 32
to juju, on post #31
My conclusion from, women causing me physical pain through the night. Surely, you have been with men that have a painful “bite” or have a very hard painful “touch”…….and they won’t listen to,,,,,,, “stop that, it hurts”…..
A-L Sep 14th 2008 at 07:22 pm 33
In regards to Juju’s #31:
I suspect the men who are abstaining get to be quite familiar with their hand. Yes, masturbation qualifies as a sin and all sins technically are equal. This being said, however, marriage is a sacrament which means that it’s REALLY important as a religious rite. Blemishing that with premarital sex would seem worse than just taking care of one’s sexual needs with masturbation, but then again, those are my $0.02 and not found anywhere in the bible. Take it for what it’s worth.
hunter Sep 14th 2008 at 10:07 pm 34
Juju on post #33
All sins are technically equal? Really? hmmmmh…
Selena Sep 16th 2008 at 09:20 am 35
hunter, Re: #14
“I have been with divorced women that I have to keep reminding, all night, that a BJ is an expression, you don’t really do it.”
Made me laugh. I dated (very briefly) a man who climaxed within 5 sec. from oral. I never understood why the act was called a bj until I met him. I felt with him I could get away with just a whistle. You know the line from the old Lauren Bacall/Humphrey Bogart movie? “Just put your lips together and blow.”
Would’ve worked for him.
JuJu Sep 16th 2008 at 11:53 am 36
Hunter, I am just saying, the dislike could be very well due to the religiosity in this case. If on top of that his orientation is “non-traditional”, that would make him feel all the more conflicted, given his views.
hunter Sep 17th 2008 at 09:00 pm 37
to selena on post #35
There is a technique,(similar to accupressure points) few women know about, on how to delay climaxing….
hunter Sep 17th 2008 at 09:02 pm 38
to juju on #36
Maybe you are right, I sense the man has been smothered/overly disciplined.
ktr899 Sep 23rd 2008 at 08:16 am 39
I think that the gang is right about this one. I know growing up my girlfriends and I were very religious and were all against it. I guess in time either the world corrupted me or I lost my beliefs a bit, but I did change how I felt about pre-martial sex. However, some of my friends did not. I support them 100% and I know why they feel this way since I did feel this way at one time. I think if you don’t have compatible beliefs, then it won’t work. If he is really strong in his beliefs, which it seems like he is, you should never try and change that. If you do, you’ll feel guilty, he’ll feel terrible. It will never work out and in addition to being broken up, you’ll both be broken people. If you’re willing to wait then that’s another compromise, but really in the end it will just cause problems. I was reading a blog about this on vdateonline.com and the guy was dating this girl who used to sleep around and then decided to no longer. This could be a different story because her beliefs maybe weren’t as strong as your boyfriend. My advice, unfortunately you should probably try again with someone who is a bit less religious.
Michael Ejercito Sep 24th 2008 at 08:44 am 40
Julia,
Can’t you just, you know…marry him?
Since he is so adamant about the issue, and you want to be in a relationship with him, why not marry him?
Because if you do not, he will find someone who will .
Bluegrass Oct 11th 2008 at 03:14 pm 41
If you do sleep together he will resent you and the relationship will be poisoned. Don’t go there, although its not nice for your ego, its a sort of rejection. But this is about his religion, not you.
Gail Oct 17th 2008 at 11:39 pm 42
Evan, i greatly appreciated your counsel to respect another person’s values instead of trying to seduce a person away from them. As a person of strong faith myself, i have experienced MANY times when a person who has tried to force or seduce me into doing something against my conscience, convictions, and/or religious convictions — even managers. That did nothing but create conflict and huge distrust.
I am a person that will try to compromise whenever possible when conflicts come up, trying to find a way of meeting a need in such a way that doesn’t compromise my convictions, but often it seems like i hit a power play or an “I’m right/you’re wrong” way of thinking. It has been my experience that people who are more liberal in their life styles and demand respect for thier life styles, are not willing to give that same respect to people who are conservative in their life styles. (Oh, by the way, i have found out that legally and constitutionally, forcing a person to go against any firmly held conviction/beliefe, directly religious or not, is considered Religious Harrassment and is protected under the law.)
And, just as an FYI, Even, since you are Jewish and in a “mixed marriage” and some of your readers might be, also …. there is religious option for Jewish/Gentile(Christian) couples for those who might be interested: attending a Messianic Judaism Synogugue. Technically, it is a branch of Christianity but its culture is decidedly Jewish. That is because about 50% of the members who are Jewish by birth but have accepted Jesus (Y’shua, in Hebrew) as their Messiah; the main distinguishing feature of Messianic Judaism is that its members do NOT assimilate and keep their Jewish life style and worship style. Their Gentile spouses are often Jewish in their hearts and enjoy the unity with thier Jewish spouse that Messianic Judaism gives them. This is esspecially true if the spouse is truly Jewish in their faith, having not accepted Y’shua as being G_d’s Messian. It was originally started by Jewish people who had accepted Y’shua as being G_d’s Messiah and couldn’t see how accepting Adoni’s Jewish Messiah to His Jewish People meant that they stopped being Jewish. At this point there are many Messianic Synogogues all over the world, even in Israel, so that one might be available for any person or couple who might be interested in trying out MJ. (MJ also has its own online web sites, particularly the MJAA, Messianic Jewish Alliance of America.)
(You have probably concluded by now that i am a member of Messianic Judaism; and you would be correct — although i am a member who is Gentile by birth, my heart and soul is very Jewish …. like Ruth’s was with Naomi.)
Shalom Shalom, Evan …. both you, your wife, and your family.