Apr03
Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?
Pages: 1 2
Dear Evan,
What’s the truth? Should women ask men out on first dates? Is it true that a man is "really not that into you" if he’s not asking you out?
Thanks!
Danielle
Dear Danielle,
You asked me a question, but you really asked me two different questions which have two different answers:
1) Should women ask out men on first dates?
No. No, they should not. Women asking men on first dates can be taken as aggressive, desperate, and masculine. At the very least, it can signify a loss of power. So I wouldn’t recommend that you ever utter the words, “Would you like to go out with me?” to any men.
This doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said before, because God knows, I’m not an advocate of women acting like helpless shrinking violets. Not at all. But there’s a difference between asking a man out and getting a man to ask you out. I vote strongly for the latter.
Women asking men out? No.
Women using all their feminine wiles to get men to ask them out? Yes.
So let’s get this straight:
Women asking men out? No.
Women using all their feminine wiles to get men to ask them out? Yes.
So what are these feminine wiles of which I speak? Besides your everyday, run-of-the-mill flirtation, there are TONS of things a woman can do to aid in her own dating process.
Let’s say you’re at a party and you see a cute guy across the room. Your friend tells you to go up and ask him out. But you’ve read this article and you know that he probably won’t respond to such a direct approach. What are you gonna do? How can you take action to make HIM take action?
Well, you can click here to see how I answer it in a video clip (about 4 minutes in) – OR you can keep reading…
So, if you see a man you want to meet, how can you meet him? By putting yourself in the position to meet him. You can cross the room, park yourself seven feet to his diagonal, turn and smile. Now that he’s in your line of sight, he has an opportunity to make eye contact with you. And when men make eye contact with you when you’re smiling, that’s their invitation to come over and introduce themselves.
Result: Woman takes action. Man makes a move. Woman stays in control and keeps her feminine energy.
It’s important to understand this dynamic when we get to Danielle’s next question:
2) Is it true that a man is "really not that into you" if he’s not asking you out?
Yes. Kind of….
Continued on next page >>Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice
Read More...
- Why Men Should Say No to Sex
- Can You Dress Sexy Without Seeming Slutty?
- What Do You Say After A First Date With No Chemistry?
- Are You Honest Or Overboard?
- When Should a Woman Have Sex With a Man?
Steve Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:07 am 1
You can cross the room, park yourself seven feet to his diagonal, turn and smile
I know I get completely turned off by women who are not 30 degrees from my line of site LOL :). Sorry Evan I couldn’t resist.
Good advice. I’ve had some nice encounters with the woman making the first move, but it is extraordinarily easy for women to overdo it and turn a guy off. I much prefer the come hither signals.
Jennifer Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:13 am 2
I often have debates with my girlfriends about this, and I couldn’t agree more with Evan!
Most men understand and accept (with the exception of the shy ones that Evan pointed out) that facing the sting of rejection is a given in the dating game. They hate it, it sucks, but they soldier on and risk it anyway *if they think the woman is worth it*. If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be). Bottom line, asking the woman out just wasn’t that serious to them because if it was, they would’ve risked rejection and done it. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already, and that’s what a lot of women risk if they openly and agressively pursue men.
Plus, some men are just too poilte (and others too opportunistic) to turn a woman down, and will ultimately take advantage of a situation where they know a woman wants them, even if they could care less about her. Why would a woman set herself up for this kind of dynamic?
I think really shy guys are the exception (somewhat), but there are probably fewer men that fit that definition than some women would like to think.
Steve Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:46 am 3
Jennifer Apr 3rd 2008 at 09:13 am 2
If the guy sees a woman smiling and flirting and doesn’t ask her out, then he’s either involved or not interested (lots of reasons why that could be).
Or he is *shy*, or he is dense to social signals. He could be a great guy, but these things *may* be an indicator of other issues that *some* women might find to be a turn off.
but I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already,
Plus, some men are just too poilte (and others too opportunistic) to turn a woman down, and will ultimately take advantage of a situation where they know a woman wants them, even if they could care less about her. Why would a woman set herself up for this kind of dynamic?
A lot of men need to hear that. I wish I heard it when I was young and first left home. I was slightly shy with women at the time, I was raised by political idealists and had similar women for friends. I operated on a set of “shoulds” as defined by what some idealists would have liked to be true, but wasn’t so in social reality.
Eventually I smartened up and learned that people do not do as they say, ESPECIALLY in matters of the heart, dating, sex and romance.
Having been there let me say, guys, you just got to suck it up. It is scary, it sucks, but if you get rejected the sun will still shine on you the next morning and the risk is well worth it because it will eventually pay off.
Blue Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:21 am 4
Evan, doesn’t this article contradict the advice you gave on “Should Women Write to Men?” (http://www.advicefromasingledatingexpert.com/should-women-write-to-men/)? Why is okay for women to make first contact with men online, but not in person?
Evan Marc Katz Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:35 am 5
Great point, Blue. But no, it’s not a contradiction. Because the mediums are completely different. Online, you don’t know who’s looking at you, what they’re thinking, who they’re seeing, etc. You can’t afford to be passive because of the variety of options presented to men.
But in real life, if you know this great guy from work? And you have been friends for six months, and he still hasn’t asked you out? He’s probably not gonna ask you out.
Thank you for calling attention to this subtle nuance. Online, YES, ask him out - as long as you’re being coy and flirtatious, rather than over-complimentary. Make him chase you. Which means that it’s pretty much the same advice as this article. You’re writing to him online, but you’re not asking him out. You’re teasing him so he asks YOU out. Therein lies the difference.
Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:42 am 6
Of course they should. Men are too lazy to even get off the couch to get a beer from the fridge.
BooBear Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:46 am 7
So Evan, men are just big pathetic babies who are so fragile they have to have their butts kissed all the time??
Selena Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:06 am 8
Well, how does this advice fall into the “Who pays for dates?” deal? It used to be common manners that whomever does the asking should be prepared to do the paying. Some men get irked because the burden of doing the asking falls to them, and thereby the expense. And some women claim they are fine with paying their own way AND their dates, and don’t have a problem asking men out either.
So now Evan, you are telling us the same thing our mother’s and grandmother’s did, “Don’t ask a man out because you will come across as too aggressive or desperate.” Okay, we buy that as a general rule. But does this mean we should offer to pay if we are asked out, or not? And if we don’t (because Hey! He did the asking) then are we not being fair to the poor guys who think we are only out for a free meal/entertainment? Most of us aren’t by the way, but nothing we say convinces the men who have this mentality.
Evan Marc Katz Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:18 am 9
http://www.advicefromasingledatingexpert.com/who-pays-for-the-first-date/
Steve Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:23 am 10
BooBear Apr 3rd 2008 at 10:46 am 7
So Evan, men are just big pathetic babies who are so fragile they have to have their butts kissed all the time??
BooBear thank you for posting the above quote.
I have found that intelligent, educated and intellectually honest women can often be blind to double standards they hold in regards to women and men. Your quote is a great example to use to illustrate this. I mean this with no sarcasm. Like I said, even cool women do this.
Lets say a woman is in a situation which threatens her sense of femininity in an objectively trivial way, but one that would give most women mildly unpleasant feelings.
A woman joins a previously all male institution and is ordered to have her head shaved just like all of the other men and women.
She will be injured in no way and will be every bit of a woman after the haircut. Other women would not dare to mock her feelings of nervousness at having her hair completely removed and if a man made a comment like “buck up bage, it is not big deal” he would be seen as crass.
However, consideration for a man’s sense of masculinity is not also similarly respected.
Whether you want to say it comes from nature, nurture, or both for most men their psychology is set up to be the initiator in social and sexual situations. Some men are threatened by the reverse while for other men it just feels odd to the point that they would rather deal with another woman.
Bottom line, it feels odd to their sense of masculinity. Instead of respecting ( not necessarily agreeing ) of that, good people like you will feel no problem about mocking or trivializing men’s feelings in this regard.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Deathslayer Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:44 am 11
“Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?”
*
Gotta say yes, they should.
Women decide within the first few minutes if they will have sex with you and under what terms……lover (right away) or provider (meal ticket).
And when it comes time to get her number - let her do the work. Always hint that you are interested. Never confirm it. Let HER wonder. Build up the attraction enigma in her. Keep on doing this until she gives in. THEN, you’re in business. She’ll be the one supplicating for your attention. She won’t be in control. She’ll dig
you even more. Now, MAYBE, you can give in some sort of ‘compromise’. But only do it when you are sure that she’s bothered enough by you to actually truly want to see you.
You earn a spot on her B-List the minute you ask her digits. Some kind of “he digs me” signal that goes on in the female brain the minute you ask for her number.
She then starts taking B-List-Joe for granted and we all know the rest of the story…
Just remember that men get no status from rejecting women, but women do get status from rejecting men. Sometimes they reject men for sport, to impress their girlfriends, or to satisfy their ego and sense of superiority.
I think there are probably a few women who miss the old days when men weren’t afraid to approach them and be friendly to them, but hey, after a while men learn that it just isn’t worthwhile to be nice to someone who will most likely just be negative to you.
Deathslayer
Deathslayer Apr 3rd 2008 at 11:48 am 12
Getting attention is the feminine equivalent of “scoring.”
For your average man, getting inside a woman’s pants is what affirms for him that he’s attractive and desirable. A man who manages to get a woman to get naked with him feels good, because he feels validated.
For women, all it takes is knowing that you want her. That’s it. Once you look at her (or strive not to look at her) in that way that says, “Wow,” she knows that she could have you if she wanted you. It reaffirms for her that her sex is worth something. It reaffirms that when it comes time for her to make her life choice she can demand a high price because she has what men want.
That’s why women lead men on and then give them the cold shoulder. Once you give her that look, you gave her what she was after.
She doesn’t need anything else from you, so she sees no need to continue treating you nicely.
Some women will smile at you across the room, lick their lips, do everything but rip their clothes off, but when you cross the dance floor and say, “Hi! Want to dance?” they say, “With you? Yeah, right.” Why? Simple: the minute you walked across the floor to ask her she had what she wanted. The rest, for her, is academic. She knows that if she’s horny she can have you, but she doesn’t want you.
She just wanted to know that you wanted her, and she’s all done.
Let me make things clear: if women asked men out 50% of the time (which they claim they do but obviously don’t) and tried to interest men (again this absolutely never happens, even if they do strike up a conversation first; they always expect the man to jump through hoops so that MAYBE they will be swayed by his silly antics) - then you would have a basis for complaining that men usually screw women over.
But in reality, men ALWAYS have to pique women’s interest, it is NEVER the other way around.
AS SUCH women 100% forfeit any right to complain.
Here we come up against the inevitable conflict between the male and female social roles and circumstances. Because men are the “designated initiators”, they are the ones who have to take an active role in “finding” that “one”, while women get to sit in their towers and pass judgment and indulge their penchants for cruelty.
The net effect for women has been two-fold. As long as they continue to rely entirely and exclusively on the passive strategy of attraction and abuse the sexual power they have, they are automatically sorting out all but the most aggressive males. Thus their attitudes become self-fulfilling prophesies as they make themselves so obnoxious that any man who is capable of sensitivity and warmth cannot stand to be around them.
Deathslayer
Selena Apr 3rd 2008 at 12:16 pm 13
Steve,
Re: Post #10 That was a very good way of explaining it. Very thoughtful.
Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 01:17 pm 14
Deathslayer,
So how do you manipulate women into wanting to have sex with you?
dadshouse Apr 3rd 2008 at 02:43 pm 15
I agree with Evan on point #1 - men should ask women out on a first date. It’s emasculating for a man if the woman is the aggressor. Once your dating, it doesn’t matter who suggests an activity. But first date, the man must ask.
In point #2, I didn’t like how you said that alpha males are “good with women.” This is NOT necessarily the case. And in fact, it is often NOT the case and can be a huge problem in a relationship.
Alpha males are good at approaching women, and when you’re in a bar, it’s the type-A’s who typically get the phone number or date, simply because they were more confident in that particular environment.
But in terms of how they treat woman, a lot of alpha males just don’t get it. They often treat women like dirt. (I’m NOT talking about all alpha males, just a lot of them.) These are the men who feed off their own ego power trips, suffer from narcissism, and demand that the woman look up to them like a hero. Those relationships can be very disfunctional.
In the longterm, type-B guys often treat women FAR better than type-A’s. In this respect, it’s the type-B guys who are “good with women.”
smartcookie Apr 3rd 2008 at 02:58 pm 16
okay, so if you give the signals, he comes over and talks to you for an hour and then doesn’t ask for your number, is it okay to give him your number?
A-L Apr 3rd 2008 at 03:34 pm 17
What about the average looking woman? The one who is neither a size 2 nor a size 16, not as pretty as Charlize Theron in real-life nor as unattractive as Charlize in Monster? Real-life Charlize undoubtedly can stand at a 30 degree angle 7′ from a man and have him running over in a heartbeat. But for those of us who are not drop-dead stunning, we attract men with other qualities. Our intelligence, caring/nurturing nature, adventuresome spirit, or whatever else we bring to the table. But a man can’t tell anything about these internal features by just looking. So, back to my original question; how does the average woman get men to pick her up?
Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 04:22 pm 18
I have no problem with average-looking women; I have been interested in average-looking women before.
A woman’s behavior has a lot to do with how attractive she is.
Michael Ejercito Apr 3rd 2008 at 04:23 pm 19
Smartcookie,
Of course you should give him your number if you feel comfortable around him.
Sarah G Apr 3rd 2008 at 06:59 pm 20
DeathSlayer — you ride the bus (see yesterday’s post). I don’t believe it that there are a lot of lip-licking women on the bus, turning down your suave advances.
Actually, I met my former fiance on a bus. He was reading “Atlas Shrugged” and I said, “Great book,” b/c someone had told me it was a great book. I hadn’t actually finished reading it. He sat down next to me and asked me out almost immediately. He said that he always carried that book out in the open, hoping that someone would comment on it. I was the only one who ever did. Perhaps I should have finished reading the book. Maybe I wouldn’t have said anything. We broke up a month after getting engaged. Thank god I dodged that bullet.
Moral of the story: Sisters–if our assigned role in this dating/mating ritual is the “come hither” stuff, we have to make sure that we are “come hithering” in a way that serves our higher purposes. Not any old bloke will do.
Note: I am doing eHarmony and I love it. Lots of cute guys giving me their numbers. Called one tonight at his request but he didn’t pick up. After reading this post — maybe I shouldn’t have called. He said he would be “chivalrous” and call me, but I don’t want all these guys having my number. Also, he was all complimentary in a sexy way about my cute pics — not sure I like that approach. Maybe he’s a player?
Collins Apr 3rd 2008 at 07:44 pm 21
I firmly believe that in this era of equality, courage to ask for a 1st date (or any date thereafter) shouldn’t have a lick to do with gender. The other year I used to see a gal who was enough into me to ask ME for a date, though she let me decide the venue (& yes, we did split the cost). She’s out of my life now (for unrelated reasons) but I do admire the proactiveness of women like her. It also makes my day to hear/read once in a blue moon of a woman proposing marriage to a man. It gives me faith that in terms of equality, the social front will slowly but surely catch up to the career front.
Lance Apr 3rd 2008 at 08:46 pm 22
@Dadshouse, I like your analysis there. Even from a social artist perspective, it’s commonly accepted that beta guys make better LTR partners and providers (ie married). They’re the safe choice. Alphas are the aggressive sex fulfillers and whatnot. I think this is changing though, as more and more safe guys are getting into social arts. I think EMK would be a good example here (Evan, I’m not calling you beta); he’s a good guy who’s obviously studied social arts and thus is well rounded. Evan, if I’m off there you can just call me a dickhead.
Back to the original topic. Women give the signals, men do the asking out. I would like to ask if any female readers of this blog have ever asked a guy out, and if so, how did it go? I’ve never flat out been asked out, but I’ve occasionally received unsolicited signals, whereby I’ll take the next step and either reject or ask her out.
Selena Apr 4th 2008 at 03:00 am 23
Lance-
I’ve never asked someone out first. Not because of some ‘rule’ or whatever, just that when I found someone I thought I might be interested in, THEY asked me out. Prior to reading this thread, I thought it was perfectly acceptable to invite a man to join me somewhere. I had the impression guys LIKED being asked out and wished women would do it more often. Guess not. Oh well, flirting your way into a date isn’t unpleasant. And if he doesn’t make a move, then you just conclude he isn’t interested and you saved yourself some trouble.
homme Apr 4th 2008 at 05:56 am 24
Evan’s advice is good for old-school women who are looking for old-school men. There are many of both in the world, and the population of them is only slowly diminishing. But, once you go beyond the this “women’s phones are only for receiving calls” and “men are from venus and women are from mars” mentality, you never turn back, because your relationships work so much better. Women and men are different in many ways, but calling for a date, buying presents, driving a car, etc. aren’t those ways.
Deathslayer Apr 4th 2008 at 06:20 am 25
Deathslayer,
So how do you manipulate women into wanting to have sex with you?
*
Same way they ‘manipulate’ you into buying them things.
Understand, women use sex to get relationships, men use relationships to get sex.
DeathSlayer — you ride the bus (see yesterday’s post). I don’t believe it that there are a lot of lip-licking women on the bus, turning down your suave advances.
*
I guess I probably shouldn’t read things like ‘Why Men Earn More’, ‘The No-Nonsense Guide Guide to Women, Death Note manga, The Art of War, Path of the Assassin, PC World Magazine and The Average American Male.
Funny thing is, more women are amazed that they always see me reading something and the comment on how much I like to read. They keep asking me had I read this or that and I comment solely on the book. I never make advances on women…it’s too dangerous these days to get things misconstrued and besides, I read for knowledge and enjoyment, not to impress a woman with my literary choices.
Deathslayer
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 06:57 am 26
I’ve often noticed that when I am asking for advice it isn’t that I am seeking information I couldn’t have come up with myself. I am looking for assurances against some fear that I have.
If you are a woman and a man isn’t asking you out you have nothing to lose by asking him out. That is you don’t have any dates to lose.
You do have your self esteem to lose if you get rejected. There are mountains of books and “therapies” on how to deal with that. At the very least you will have better friendships with your guy friends because you will be able to relate to them on a very big issue for men.
I’ve seen books for women on amazon on how to drop more obvious “come hither” signals and how to initiate a date with a guy in less direct, less masculine ways.
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 07:02 am 27
A-L Apr 3rd 2008 at 03:34 pm 17
What about the average looking woman? The one who is neither a size 2 nor a size 16, not as pretty as Charlize Theron in real-life nor as unattractive as Charlize in Monster?
A-L;
I’m an average looking man who likes average looking women. I’m not alone. I don’t think there are that many of us who are seriously holding out for Charlize.
If by “average” you mean a slim body and as much trouble to appearance as the “average” woman devotes herself I would say your appearance is not an issue.
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 07:03 am 28
and Charlize isn’t all that great. She can’t make a single decision on her own. I wish she would stop texting me every hour on the hour
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 07:04 am 29
smartcookie Apr 3rd 2008 at 02:58 pm 16
okay, so if you give the signals, he comes over and talks to you for an hour and then doesn’t ask for your number, is it okay to give him your number?
** YES **
There is a huge difference between something like that and approaching him directly the way a man would approach a woman.
dadshouse Apr 4th 2008 at 07:34 am 30
Sarah G - love the book reading approach! I see so many attractive women come into a coffee house and immediately pull out their cell phone and start texting. Should I walk up and say “is thattext message any good?”, or “cool phone!” Um, … no. But if she’s reading a book, I can totally approach her. Even if I haven’t read the book, I can ask if it’s any good. Books are great props to invite conversation. Add some “come hither” glances, and it’s even better.
bringwedding Apr 4th 2008 at 09:09 am 31
if a man doesn’t ask a women out first dates, than probably he probably “not that into you”, but don’t you think by being brave and asking him out for the first date might be her chance to make him get to know her better ?
Who knows that might change his mind about her ?
BooBear Apr 4th 2008 at 09:17 am 32
Steve, What makes you so sure I am female? Perhaps I am a man whose penis does not shrivel when I am asked out by a woman? Again, pathetic.
Michele Apr 4th 2008 at 09:24 am 33
Steve, your post # 26……..and those “books” all claim to have the answer(s) to a blissful life forever. Their marketing efforts certainly provide incredible creativity for the desperate.
Yet another approach is that some of the online dating sites are offering FREE extended memberships for those who don’t find Ms/Mr Right, w/in a specified time frame. Seems rather clinical to me.
AND……..then the couple finally connects. Relationship issues surface and back to amazon to “read up” on how to correct those problems. Perhaps even decide that counseling might be an option, when in reality a good number of “counselors” are riddled with difficult lives themselves
What a tangled web life becomes………:-)
My posture will continue to remain positive, try to enjoy each day and take things with the proverbial grain of salt (that would be sea salt).
BeenThruTheWars Apr 4th 2008 at 09:30 am 34
I agree with everything Evan advised, with the exception of asking out “shy” guys. Far better to “put out the signals” that you are interested and see if he responds. If he doesn’t… move on. You’re wasting your time. He either A) doesn’t find you attractive (just because he’s shy doesn’t mean he has no “type”), B) is already in a relationship he doesn’t advertise at work, C) is gay and also may not advertise that, D) any one of a dozen other reasons he doesn’t want to ask you out, and won’t. People tend to do what they want to do, and not do what they don’t want to do.
Case in point. When I was in my twenties, there was a “shy guy” in the department of the big ad agency where I worked. (It turned out he had almost zero dating experience — he was a 27-year-old virgin). I thought he was cute in an intense/nerdy kind of way. I knew it would be kinda icky if I asked him out directly, so instead, when the whole department was out celebrating someone’s birthday or something at a bar one night, I mentioned within his hearing that I was dying to see the new Woody Allen movie! Had anyone seen it, was it any good? The next morning, he walked into my office at 9:01 a.m., helped himself to some candy from my candy jar, and stated very matter-of-factly, “So: last night you said you wanted to see ‘Purple Rose of Cairo’… it’s playing at the such and thus theater, would you like to go see it with me this Friday after we have dinner someplace?”
See? Shy, inexperienced guy asks out woman he’s attracted to ALL ON HIS OWN! All he needed was some encouragement/smiling/light flirting (appropriate for a business setting) and an “idea” of what might please her on a date.
I’m in Mensa and when I was single, I dated a lot of guys in that organization. Trust me, male Mensans are not, by and large, Captain Suave in their personal lives. Lots of tech guys, engineers, IT types, etc. who work in mostly male environments and have very little contact with women. When they are in comfortable surroundings with females they’re attracted to, they have NO problem asking someone they like if they would like to check out the Star Wars convention downtown that weekend and maybe go out for Ethiopian food after.
Etc.
So in this one instance, I must respectfully disagree with Evan’s advice. But the rest of his advice was dead on (as usual). Heed it, and you will weed out the guys who really aren’t that interested in dating you without a single ouchie; and you will invite into your life the guys who ARE interested. It really is that simple. I don’t think of it as “old-fashioned” or outdated as much as I think of it as “classic, tried-and-true male/female dynamics” when you are dealing with two emotionally healthy people who aren’t manipulators or game-players.
JB Apr 4th 2008 at 09:37 am 35
^^^^^^^^
I’m so sick of seeing women on their cell phone when they’re alone.
I always walk up and open with “how come whenever I SEE a woman alone she’s talking on her cell phone but whenever I call a woman’s cell phone she never answers” …LOL !
Which isn’t true but it’s a great opener !
I’ve been dating 30 yrs, I can count the times on 2 hands when a woman has asked ME out on a first date (excluding weddings & such).
Most of the time I can remember it was “lower status” women meaning women I wouldn’t persue anyway. Although I’m flattered, I usually gracefully decline. I’ll do the asking out. Thank you very much.
If you want to email me first online or wink. I have no problem with that.
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 10:11 am 36
BooBear Apr 4th 2008 at 09:17 am 32
Steve, What makes you so sure I am female? Perhaps I am a man
I wouldn’t be surprised
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 10:21 am 37
Michele;
I wouldn’t make it a mission to go through the self help books and blogs with a fine toothed comb either. If you want to ask a guy out just be less forward about it than a man. Use your own judgment. Experiment.
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 10:24 am 38
BeenThruTheWars Apr 4th 2008 at 09:30 am 34
Case in point. When I was in my twenties, there was a “shy guy” in the department of the big ad agency where I worked. (It turned out he had almost zero dating experience — he was a 27-year-old virgin).
Since I have never asked shy men out I was wondering what your opinion is on my intuition that guys you have to ask out come with issues the average woman would not want to deal with?
Li-Ann Apr 4th 2008 at 11:57 am 39
I am with Evan 100% on this one.
I totally respect those who commented who would like women to ask men out, but my life time of dating experience tells me that this doesn’t work in practice
As Evan often says, he wishes it were different, but the reality is that most men lose respect or interest when you ask them out. Suddenly you are suspect in the eyes of the man. Is something wrong with you? Why are you so available? Does no one else want you? Are you desperate? Again, I stress, I wish it was not this way, and I wish it could work both ways, but it doesn’t.
I have found that if you even give the slightest hint of being too eager - it more often than not works against you. It would be nice to think that the men out there appreciate women doing the work, but deep down most don’t once it actually happens. I recognize that there are some men on this board who do like women asking them out, and I respect and salute that, but they are in the minority of what I’ve experienced out there.
Steve Apr 4th 2008 at 12:17 pm 40
Li-Ann Apr 4th 2008 at 11:57 am
Again, I stress, I wish it was not this way, and I wish it could work both ways, but it doesn’t.
Isn’t it sad and tiring that you do have to stress that? I know, “welcome to Planet Earth”.
It seems like many problems in life are about people being slow to accept that a rock is a rock and not something else.
It seems like Evan’s business is mostly about getting people to accept then work with reality rather than giving out straight information.
I guess the name of the blog would “Advice From An Unemployed Single Dating Expert” if people could work with reality from the get-go on difficult issues.
hunter Apr 4th 2008 at 12:36 pm 41
To selena,
I remember being clueless in my 20’s and 30’s. Women come up with subtle messages, and unless you are a good looking man, we may get a subtle message, oh, say, maybe once a year. Average looking men don’t get trained by mountains of women like the good looking men do….
hunter Apr 4th 2008 at 12:40 pm 42
to Selena,
I guess what I am saying is, give the “dork”, or short, fat, bald man a second chance, he might wake up and see your invitation.
hunter Apr 4th 2008 at 12:45 pm 43
To beenthruwars,
Mensa does attract herds of men, and mostly professional. The few women mensans are attractive also.
Selena Apr 4th 2008 at 01:22 pm 44
hunter-
I’m confused. Which post of mine are you addressing?
I’ve dated all types of men at one time or another–short, bald, dork, over-sized body builder, really different “types”. One thing I’ve learned is that the more I get to know someone, and LIKE them, the more attractive they become to me, whatever my initial impression was about their looks.
I was shy as a child, into my early 20’s to an extent. Now in my 40’s I’m outgoing (go figure), so “my thing” (persona?) whatever you want to call it, is open and friendly. I’ve never asked anyone out first (yet) because they have always beaten me to the punch. We’ll see what may happen this year–last 11 mos. I have spent ’seasonal’, haven’t decided what city I want to settle into yet.
You?
KAREN Apr 4th 2008 at 01:33 pm 45
I am definitely listening to Evan’s advice on this one. I am always complimented on my looks, my figure and my charismatic personality. I also receive many dinner date offers.
Therefore, with all this confidence, I decided to ask a very nice, very handsome business associate out. I had a few discussions with this man during the past few months and we really seemed to enjoy each other’s company. He did appear to be a bit shy so I decided to ask him out. Wow! I was so very embarrassed when he turned me down. I was utterly speechless as he explained why. Unfortunately, for me, he is a shy gay man. As confident as I am, I shall never ever ask a man out again! I now know how men feel when they are turned down by women.
Yes, this has changed my outlook on dating. I tend to accept dates now from men that I normally would not otherwise date due to their height, weight or looks. As long as they are sincere, honest and have a great sense of humor I date them!! See what happens when the shoe is on the other foot!!
Lance Apr 4th 2008 at 01:50 pm 46
@JB: That’s a nice little opener, I’ll file it away. I have an opener for women who walk around and text: “Hey, I know you’re texting me, but I’m standing right here.” Something along those lines. Works great on college girls.
Here’s a Brad P phone/text opener: Send yourself a text that says, “I think you’re hot, please introduce yourself.” Then, when you see a girl texting, walk up to her, act delighted, and show her the text. Say something clever and charming.
I just remembered, I HAVE been asked out by a woman, two weeks ago in fact. She’s a very nice girl who asked me to go watch a softball game with her. I would have said yes, but unfortunately we work together and I have a rule that I don’t date co-workers. It’s too bad, because she’s cute. It did take me by surprise, but I don’t recall losing my frame or feeling emasculated.
I’m still on the fence on this one…
What Do I Think About Chicks Making The First Move? | Honey and Lance Apr 4th 2008 at 02:17 pm 47
[…] out a quick post. There’s a great thread on Evan Marc Katz’s blog, which you can find here, entitled, “Should Women Ask Men Out On First […]
Deathslayer Apr 5th 2008 at 06:24 am 48
WHY don’t women ask men out? They don’t want to face the same rejection men get for asking them out. What rejection is that?
THIS:
A rant from a friend:
“Why I don’t speak to you anymore” and it’s addressed to women in general.
I don’t speak to you anymore. And I know you find this unthinkable. In your mind, what young single guy wouldn’t leap at the invitation to be a bit player in the drama that is your life, in which you’re the lead actress?
After all, you’re young, female, attractive, sexually nubile, maybe even single. Aren’t all guys supposed to leap at that?
Yet, I refuse to speak to you.
What you’re seeing is the pinnacle in the evolution of an attitude created and reinforced by thousands of minor transgressions. Each a grain of sand in size, but so numerous, they collectively create a mountain.
I don’t speak to you because I’ve tried before.
I’ve been genuinely interested in your life. Yet, when I ask questions in an attempt to build a bridge of friendship between us, to seek a common ground upon which we can both meet, I receive a glassy-eyed look as if I’m bothering you. As if, deep inside, you’re screaming
“Why are you bothering me, won’t you please shut up and leave?”
Eventually, I learned that the common ground is neither there, nor is a place upon which I wish to walk. So, I quit building bridges.
I don’t speak to you because I’ve tried before. I’ve tried to develop interests in the things that interest you. No matter how insipid, trivial, or dull I find the stories of your friends I’ve never met, of people I do not know, of things on TV that have no interest in watching, I try to make the effort to learn about these things.
Because what interests you is a part of who you are, and if you are going to matter to me, I’d like to see what you like. Exposure to new things is part of growing as a person, and each person can learn from the other. A cross-pollenization of ideas.
However, you never seem to be interested in my life. You behave as if my life is a bother to you.
You’re not interested in finding out who I am. I’m supposed to be off in the shadows, only to step into the limelight when the central drama needs me to support you.
When my time has passed, it’s back into the shadows I go, replaced with someone else. So, I quit trying to learn from you. After all, trying to drive the wrong way down a one-way street is as foolish as the experience is nerve-wracking.
I don’t speak to you anymore because you’re no different than anyone else. You’re not unique anymore. There’s nothing special about you. The colors may vary, but you dress the same as everyone else. The names and faces of the other bit-actors and actresses in the central drama that is your life may be different, but the plots the same. You’re no different than a low-budget porno movie. Any novelty you may have is purely superficial, the substance is the same. Forgive me if I leave early, I’ve seen this movie before, I know how it ends, and it’s never worth the price of admission.
So, I refuse to speak to you anymore. It doesn’t surprise me why you do not understand why I do not speak to you, though it does astonish me that you find my silence odd.
Perhaps, you mistake the noise that emanates from you for my voice.
Perhaps it’s because you’re so busy communicating you never bother to listen for a response. What ever the underlying cause for your lack of comprehension, one thing remains clear, what you have to say simply does not matter to me anymore.
Deathslayer
Sarah G Apr 5th 2008 at 09:37 pm 49
DS: Here’s a checklist for when you approach a woman you do not know/are interested in.
1) Have you bathed and washed your hair today?
2) Have you brushed and flossed recently?
3) Is your hair cut in an attractive and not scary style?
4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
5) Have you left your backpack at home?
6) Did you smile sincerely and address the woman in a cordial tone?
If you answered “no” to any or all of the above, you might get the response(s) described in your post.
Just a thought. From one of the few people on this board who finds you amusing and not a complete turn-off.
5) Ha
hunter Apr 6th 2008 at 01:07 am 50
to Selena,
There is a role reversal, as people mature. Women lose their shyness and men become less aggressive.
starthrower68 Apr 6th 2008 at 11:53 am 51
I agree wholeheartedly with the poster waaaayyyy above that said she doesn’t want to have to convince a man to be interested in her. To that I say, AMEN my sister! I believe it’s the man’s job to pursue and the woman’s job to be open and graciously receive what he offers. I don’t mean she should be a gold-digger, bleed him dry, or anything like that. However, I do realize there are exceptions to every rule, so if any of you girls here have tried it and been successful, way to go!
hunter Apr 6th 2008 at 09:06 pm 52
to Sarah G,
Good list, thanks..
BeenThruTheWars Apr 6th 2008 at 09:51 pm 53
>> Since I have never asked shy men out I was wondering what your opinion is on my intuition that guys you have to ask out come with issues the average woman would not want to deal with?
Steve (post 38)
BeenThruTheWars Apr 6th 2008 at 09:51 pm 54
Steve,
“Guys you have to ask out” are guys who aren’t interested enough in a woman to ask her out themselves. That’s really all one needs to know, isn’t it?
You never really know what kind of baggage or issues your date has until you’ve been seeing them exclusively for a while. Unless they are truly psycho and it’s all right out there in the open for the whole world to see! I’ve dated very outgoing men and very shy men, as well as men in between; and have not noticed that one personality type vs. another had the red flag market cornered.
Steve Apr 7th 2008 at 06:05 am 55
Sarah G Apr 5th 2008 at 09:37 pm 49
4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
Hey! I work in technology too! LOL! :). I can’t deny it Sarah there really are under-socialized people in IT. That being written, one of the reasons I went into programming was all of the cool people I met who were in the field. Seems like most people in IT I met are at one extreme or the other. Either they have all of their shit together or they are a basket case.
I’ve noticed that it is common for the latter group to cling to the belief that they are special. Smarter than other people, misunderstood geniuses, etc ( they really aren’t ). The ironic thing is that belief holds them back socially, keeping them miserable and they don’t see it. The dirty end of the “special” stick is that they believe they lack something ordinary people have which prevents them from connecting with others. If they could accept that fact that they ordinary people, they would go out, socialize, take their lumps from their mistakes, form rewarding relationships, get happier and move on.
cheryl Apr 7th 2008 at 04:48 pm 56
ok my story is a bit long but here it goes…
I really like this bouncer at my favourite club cos he’s always been very friendly and funny to me so one day i decided to ask for his number (cos i was drunk enough to, normally i would be too scared to), anyway he gave me his number right away and told me to call the next day cos he wont be working. Later he asked me if im really going to call him i didn’t give him a straight answer so he asked for my number. a few days later, we talked on the phone and he said we should grab coffee, but i was too busy so i said i’ll see you at the club on friday probably. so on friday he approached me and spend most of the night talking to me and he asked me out to dinner with his friends the next day. he told me when he’s getting off work, when he would call, and when and where dinner will be…and guess what….he Never called. why the hell would someone waste so much time if he’s not interested….does this have anything to do with me approaching him first?
KAREN Apr 7th 2008 at 06:56 pm 57
To Cheryl:
Bouncers will be Bouncers! They all behave very interested in you at first. You must realize that many many women approach them all the time. In essence, they have a vast choice of women to pick from. In this case, possibly, he decided to play games with another flower from the garden. However, “don’t sweat the small stuff” (: Count yourself lucky that this encounter didn’t go any further. In other words “leave the bouncers alone because they always bounce”!! Much luck to you in the future!! Always Enjoy Life!!
hunter Apr 7th 2008 at 07:22 pm 58
to beenthruwars,
If we define a shy person as one who is unaware of his own power,
you might have a point there, about asking shy men out and having to deal with issues the average woman may not want to. How interesting….
hunter Apr 7th 2008 at 07:35 pm 59
to steve
There is truth in your words! Undersocialized people!,,LOL! I love it!…They are out there!….
Might I add to that, relationship challenged, uninformed, etc. It is sad that they are this way. They no longer have to be that Way!…..I think most are unaware, that there is so much relationship info, going around, especially on the internet!……
Deathslayer Apr 8th 2008 at 08:56 am 60
DS: Here’s a checklist for when you approach a woman you do not know/are interested in.
1) Have you bathed and washed your hair today?
*
Yes. I’m still ugly, but I smell good.
2) Have you brushed and flossed recently?
*
Yes, having only one tooth makes that chore easy.
3) Is your hair cut in an attractive and not scary style?
*
Define ’scary’
4) Have you hidden the PC Magazine in your backpack?
*
No. Actually more women ask me if I’m into computers, give me their email or phone number to help them with a computer problem.
5) Have you left your backpack at home?
*
Why would I do that…It contains my tools, including the claw hammer. Consider it an alignment tool.
6) Did you smile sincerely and address the woman in a cordial tone?
*
Yes I did smile…sadly she mistook my smile as one of a psychopath on a rampage and left me alone. I get that a lot. Something about wearing all black, tinted black glasses and a look that has made people say they don’t want to meet me in a dark alley.
If you answered “no” to any or all of the above, you might get the response(s) described in your post.
*
Actually my real problem is making time to even talk to a woman…making money on computers is more fun.
Just a thought. From one of the few people on this board who finds you amusing and not a complete turn-off.
5) Ha
*
No offense taken.
Deathslayer
downtowngal Apr 9th 2008 at 06:27 pm 61
I’m totally w Evan on this one. I’ve often heard guys say, ‘gee, I wish a woman would ask ME out for once’ but truth is, that same guy would be the one pursuing a woman he likes.
And I agree with BeenThroughtheWars, even the shy guys will muster up the courage to ask a girl out. He might need more encouragement but he’s still a guy. I had a boyfriend who was a very shy introvert but was very aggressive in pursuing me and very expressive, wrote amazing love notes; and I knew he was sincere as he wasn’t a player.
I think guys get turned on by asking a women out as it’s a very masculine thing to do, just as I get turned on if a guy asks me out. Even if I’m not into the guy I respect him; likewise, if a woman directly asks out a guy I think he loses respect for her.
vino Apr 10th 2008 at 04:45 pm 62
“Should Women Ask Men Out on First Dates?”
Yes. DS has some points.
“Getting attention is the feminine equivalent of “scoring.”
He’s got that nailed. “For women, all it takes is knowing that you want her. That’s it. . . That’s why women lead men on and then give them the cold shoulder. Once you give her that look, you gave her what she was after.
“She doesn’t need anything else from you, so she sees no need to continue treating you nicely.”
“She just wanted to know that you wanted her, and she’s all done.”
Funny thing is that the coolest women I meet are the ones who initiate contact with me. Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this ‘challenge’ since most men they meet aren’t.
Hot Alpha Female Apr 10th 2008 at 09:06 pm 63
I really think that guys that think its OK when a girls asks them on a date don’t really know what it going on.
Guys are build for a little bit of a challenge. Its not a logical thing. Its a irrational inbuilt thing.
Just how a girl can be attracted to a guy and not know why. A guy is inevitability much more attracted to a girl who lets him do the chasing.
Simple as that
Hot Alpha Female
www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com
hunter Apr 11th 2008 at 06:28 am 64
Another factor to consider…..if a man is fighting depression, he will, most likely, never ask a woman out…
vino Apr 11th 2008 at 08:44 am 65
“A guy is inevitability much more attracted to a girl who lets him do the chasing.”
Huh? Girls who sit back & expect the girl to do all of the work are simply not worth the effort. Nothing like starting out prostrating yourself to another. Nonsensical.
vino Apr 11th 2008 at 08:46 am 66
Made a typo.
“expect the girl” should be expect the guy.
Multitasking not strong suit.
Michele Apr 11th 2008 at 01:43 pm 67
Hunter…..your #64 post.
Depression can be cured. Sometimes the meds are a necessary element to do so. How do I know? They were my crutch after a bitter divorce. Am OK now and back to my positive (often times) idealistic/liberal self.
hunter Apr 11th 2008 at 03:48 pm 68
to Michele,
There is a new therapy going around, I believe it is called, cognitive behavioral, works without meds, most men won’t even do that…
cinnamon Apr 13th 2008 at 12:46 am 69
to vino,
I do see the points in your’s and DS’s reasoning . From my personal point of view I think there is one more aspect that might need considering. If a woman shows you interest in any way or even initiates contact with you and you give her an impression that you don’t care if you date her or not, then there is a big chance the woman will conclude that you’re not that into her. I would like to underline that this is not a matter of the amount of effort or power in the relation, these should be more or less balanced in my opinion. It’s a matter of letting someone know that their interest is being reciprocated.
Especially if you’re looking for a girl who is feminine, the chance that she will actively pursue a man after she started to suspect that he’s not into her is very small…
JerseyGirl Apr 13th 2008 at 04:48 pm 70
“Just remember that men get no status from rejecting women, but women do get status from rejecting men. Sometimes they reject men for sport, to impress their girlfriends, or to satisfy their ego and sense of superiority.”
—————————————————————————–
Neither myself, or any of my girlfriends reject men for “sport”. We have however, rejected men because we were just not attracted back and did not want to lead him on. If these area the type of women you keep encountering, then you need to look at yourself and why you are driven to be attracted to the same type.
As for the intial question. I think typically men should ask women out. Just the natural course of nature between men and women. But I will also argue that men are not always so good at picking up signals and women are not always good at giving good signals. Sometimes men are very literal and straight forward in the sense that a coy smile doesn’t always give them the hint. Sometimes, a woman thinks she is being obvious and giving many signals but she really isn’t doing anything that they guy really reads as interest. I don’t think people always realize what message they are giving and I certainly don’t think people always interupt other people’s messages clearly. I would bet there are a huge number of men and women out there that were interested in each other but never came together because of mixed signals.
hunter Apr 13th 2008 at 08:58 pm 71
to jerseygirl,
you said, ‘I bet there are a large number of men and women out there, that, never met because of mixed signals,” I agree with you on that one….but most of us know the problem, and have known for years, question is, “do you have a solution?”
vino Apr 14th 2008 at 08:45 am 72
I do see the points in JG’s and cinn’s posts, particularly JG’s regarding missed signals and opportunities. My thing is if ladies want equality across the board societally speaking (job access, equal pay for equal work, etc.), it also applies in this area too. Simply put, if ladies can do everything men can, they should in the dating arena also.
I’d also see if I can get a few responses to this question - Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?
Enough about what SHOULD be. The reality is that most guys are not great at picking up any but the most obvious signals from women as a green light to initiate contact/flirting. The further reality is that guys who are truly interested in meeting someone will have to initiate more, and get over any rejection fears they have of doing so.
JerseyGirl Apr 14th 2008 at 10:43 am 73
If I did, I would be married to the man of my dreams right now.
missy Apr 15th 2008 at 08:56 am 74
Vino: “Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?”
Evolutionary psychology - the deeply ingrained, unconscious attraction response by a woman to a man who appears to be able to lead effectively. Probably doesn’t stand up to reason in today’s day and age, but people can’t help being pulled by what they’re automatically drawn to.
Thick forearms, meaty chest and a nice bulge in his jeans doesn’t hurt either.
cinnamon Apr 15th 2008 at 10:08 am 75
“Why, specifically, do you ladies prefer that men make all of the moves?”
Probably you’ll get as many different reasons as there are women who prefer that. For me, making the first moves goes somehow with two traits that I value in men, i.e. being responsible and protective. I really do not see this as an opposition to wishing job access or equal pay for equal work…
vino Apr 15th 2008 at 11:31 am 76
Missy: ” . . . and a nice bulge in his jeans doesn’t hurt either.”
- As opposed to a nasty bulge?
I don’t know that I agree it is ‘evolutionary psychology’ so much as societal conditioning. Men are conditioned they should do it and women to expect it.
I’m going to be a bit argumentative with cinn - I see a flaw in your reasoning. If you or any woman can do everything a man can do in society (this is the key), not just work, then you can also assume the responsibilities of initiating contact with someone you fancy.
As I see it women expecting guys to do all of the pursuing is a bit disingenuous. On the one hand, ladies can go out & slay the dragons in the working world just like the guys, but in dating, they’re suddenly seeking to be pursued like some shrinking violets. This is my point about picking and choosing responsibilities they don’t like.
Being responsible & protective? I don’t understand how me walking up to you to flirt with you represents that. Also, if women can do everything I can do, they can protect themselves, and do not need a man to do it. If you’re responsible enough to do the same things I do in the working world, you are responsible enough to go talk to a guy.
My issue is that women in general like to have it both ways - Equality at work, but treat me like a delicate flower 100 years ago, when women did little proactive work in courting/mating.
If you want to be equal, then be equal. Go talk to that guy. Ask him out. As an equal, you are equally responsible for dating and finding someone. If you don’t talk to him, someone else will.
frau kluger als wein Apr 15th 2008 at 02:15 pm 77
Vino: “My thing is if ladies want equality across the board societally speaking (job access, equal pay for equal work, etc.), it also applies in this area too.”
**************
Men and women should have equal rights, yes. Equal rights should not be confused with psychologically sameness. A preference for the man making the first move could be lumped into the same category as liking shopping, shoes & makeup - a tendency exhibited far more strongly in women, but one which does not make them any less entitled to equal paying jobs.
Furthermore, there are no laws in effect barring a woman from asking a man for a date. So you could say even here male/female equality remains intact. It just so happens that males choose to exercise the right to solicit dates more frequently than females as a societal trend.
For the record, I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she can pull it off smoothly enough. Just like any man. But if the assertion here is: “Women’s want justice in the workplace, therefore they should also want to be the initiator in mating matters”, my response is “Not necessarily.”
Btw, specious arguments like Vino’s above aren’t exactly a competitive advantage for a man in the workplace. Lmao.
vino Apr 15th 2008 at 05:43 pm 78
Frau:
“Equal rights should not be confused with psychologically sameness. A preference for the man making the first move could be lumped into the same category as liking shopping, shoes & makeup - a tendency exhibited far more strongly in women, but one which does not make them any less entitled to equal paying jobs.”
No one is saying it is psychological sameness. I certainly did not. One could also say that a woman’s preference for lack of initiation is
“Furthermore, there are no laws in effect barring a woman from asking a man for a date.”
- What does that have to do with anything? I bet most women would welcome that law, in any event.
“So you could say even here male/female equality remains intact.”
- It does in theory, not in practice. If this thread indicates anything, it’s that equal women want to be catered to in the dating arena (come talk to me 1st, ask for my #, initiate the call, ask me out, make the plan, take care of the arrangements, pick me up, take me there pay for the date..) as though it were 1925, and they were basically sheltered creatures till they were married off, usually by age 21. It’s an anachronism, not to mention a double standard.
“t just so happens that males choose to exercise the right to solicit dates more frequently than females as a societal trend.”
- It doesn’t just so happen. That’s what men have been historically trained to do. The funny thing is that more and more men are opting out of this. The related threads of “Where are all of the Good Guys” on this site is indicative of this. They’re leaving this way of dating & mating, so it’s not a trend of asking women more frequently. It’s trending away from that, if anything.
“For the record, I see nothing wrong with a woman making the first move if she can pull it off smoothly enough. Just like any man.”
- I agree. But most don’t. They expect a guy to do all the work.
“But if the assertion here is: “Women’s want justice in the workplace, therefore they should also want to be the initiator in mating matters”, my response is “Not necessarily.””
- No, they shoudn’t WANT to be the initiator…the present situation favors them too much to WANT that.
I read an interesting article a week ago. I want to say Rudov wrote it. that used the Biblical story of Adam and Eve that speaks to this. At its base level, the story is one of CHOICES and DEALING with the CONSEQUENCES of those CHOICES. It’s called adulthood.
In the beginning (had to do that!) Adam was in Eden, protected by God. That’s how children are raised. God instructed Adam to eat as he wanted from the Tree of Life but never from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam did so.
Then God made Eve and then the serpent. On cue, the serpent convinced Eve convinced Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Eve, in turn, persuaded Adam to eat also. Because of this disobedience, God expelled them from the protection of the Garden of Eden to the big, bad, real world.
The article’s interpretation was that taking Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve became “human.” In doing so, they CHOSE elected adulthood, freedom of choice, and accountability, instead of a coddled life in the Garden.
So after leaving Eden, Adam and Eve lost their immortality via the Tree of Life, which now forced them to procreate and become parents. Adam also learned that going forward he would earn a living “by the sweat of his brow.” Knowing Right vs. Wrong separated Adam and Eve from the animals and made them responsible for the first time—a depth they didn’t have in Eden. This abrupt change enhanced, not diminished, their lives. On the contrary, living forever like a protected, spoiled, entitled child is a punishment, not a reward.
So Garden of Eden lesson is that life is about choices. However, this lesson is lost on the women who constantly decry the dearth or death of chivalry. Too many ladies fail to accept the premise that, once they leave their parents’ “Gardens of Eden,” they are choosing the responsibilities and accountability of adulthood. Unfortunately, these coddled, entitled women want the double standard of one foot in the real world—college degrees, big salaries, home ownership—and one in the garden of special privileges—come talk to me 1st, ask for my #, initiate the call, ask me out, make the plan, take care of the arrangements, pick me up, take me there pay for the date, presumed wining & dining, etc. Such a woman wants to achieve and to be taken care of. But, life doesn’t work that way.
What is this these entitled women so crave? Today, this ‘chivalry’ is a one-way street of give, give give from men to women. Men extend chivalry not out of respect but as a necessary means to an end (sex). Contrast this with civility, which is a two-way street of considerate, generous behavior. Civility is bereft of gender-based entitlement; chivalry is all about gender-based entitlement.
Just as Eve made a fundamental choice about life, so, too, must women in today’s world choose: deferential treatment or respect. They can have one or the other, but never both. Women who want chivalry and also believe chivalrous men respect them as peers are kidding themselves. In an era when a woman can become anything she wants and earn as much as she wants, if she also expects men to do all the work and finance her social life, she is beyond audacious. She’s rude and narcissistic.
Ladies can’t get special treatment from the bank, the IRS, doctor, or other places. Why should she get it from men? She shouldn’t. But, if a man accords her special treatment, it’s because by demanding it she has reduced herself to a sex object. And, that’s really how he views her. Their so-called relationship then becomes based on legalized prostitution, not respect.
If women want to gain respect amongst men, they must leave the Garden of Eden permanently, with both feet in the real, tough world. They must stop demanding chivalry, act like peers, and treat men like peers. This critical behavioral change does not make women less feminine and men less masculine. It makes them peers—equal in intelligence, capability, and potential—with different sex organs and complementary styles.
“Btw, specious arguments like Vino’s above aren’t exactly a competitive advantage for a man in the workplace. Lmao.”
- Yes, pointing out hypocrisy has no place at work. Particularly applied to ladies.
cinnamon Apr 15th 2008 at 07:27 pm 79
vino
I’m glad to hear that the cases of women taking initiative have so far worked fine for you. However, it has not worked out for me so I would like to reserve my right to feel about the issue the way I do.
Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: “I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already”. Well, I couldn’t agree more.
vino Apr 15th 2008 at 10:31 pm 80
Cinn, my pal:
” . . . However, it has not worked out for me so I would like to reserve my right to feel about the issue the way I do.”
- You absolutely do. Not trying to suggest otherwise, just perhaps a different way of looking at things.
Also, please consider that while initiating dating may not have worked for you, I don’t know that you’ve done it much. Point is that if it hasn’t worked for you in your (likely) limited tries, consider that men always must to initiate, only get shot down the vast, vast majority of the time. This occurs from earliest interactions with women in teens going forward. Imagine the toll hundreds of rejections take over the years to most guys. Just asking you to consider the flip side.
“Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: “I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already”. Well, I couldn’t agree more.”
- Here’s my reaction to that thinking: too bad. Cold, I know. (I’m also working on 4 hrs of sleep, so crankiness is a factor). But it’s okay for a man to start an association with you as a woman trying to convince you he’s worth your time if you don’t already feel that same way… See the double standard in such a perspective? You want him to do things you are unwilling to do. Not because it’s so horrible, but because you don’t want to risk your pride and ego, 2 things which, IMHO, are big barriers in maintaining meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise.
Again, women can do everything men can do. In dating that means actually taking a risk, taking some initiative. It’s like being Goldilocks - you want the bowls of poridge to come to you…”No that one’s too hot.” “No, that one’s too cold.” “This one’s just tepid enough to do”
Ladies like being Goldilocks, not the poridge. Understandable, but hypocritical.
BTW, I agree with Evan that guys to maximize their chances, should take the initiative. Women on the whole expect this, so it’s about the likelihood of success. The reality, not what should be.
The flip side is that there are increasing numbers of men don’t want to play this little double standard game where women are go-getter adults, but pampered princesses in dating and mating. So the pool of good guys dwindles further for women.
Michael Ejercito Apr 16th 2008 at 07:45 am 81
Jennifer wrote in one of the posts above: “I don’t want to start an association with a man trying to convince him that I’m worth his time if he doesn’t feel that way already”. Well, I couldn’t agree more.
A man could say a similar thing about a woman.
So why should men ask women out on dates, but not the other way around?
Hat Pines Apr 16th 2008 at 09:58 am 82
“Just asking you to consider the flip side.”
She’s a WOMAN.
She will refuse to understand the flip side.
women expect us to understand THEM and to be considerate about THEIR feelings, while not making any effort to understand US or be considerate of OUR feelings.
Is there any surprise we dont respect women? That we are only in it for sex?
cinnamon Apr 16th 2008 at 11:08 am 83
vino, my friend
I do see a lot of good reasoning and good will in your point of view
Especially, the one about the value of being authentic. What I cannot understand is actually one of the first statements from you in this thread:
“Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this ‘challenge’ since most men they meet aren’t.”
I’m absolutely with you on the argument that says not wanting to risk your pride and ego are big barriers in maintaining meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise. On both sides. So true! But how come do I read in one of your posts that you prefer showing indifference towards a woman because it gives you control over the situation, and just next to that you appeal to women to be authentic and initiate contact? I’m not afraid of an honest rejection. Unfortunately, I did not experience an honest rejection and I simply take it as a lesson learned.
vino Apr 16th 2008 at 01:41 pm 84
cinn, my friend
About one of my first statements, maybe I wasn’t clear enough. The statement:
“Since I don’t care if I date anyone, including them, it’s intriguing to them. When women who are used to being pursued aren’t, it takes them aback. Why? They know you cannot be controlled, as DS describes. They like this ‘challenge’ since most men they meet aren’t.”
I don’t advocate showing indifference as a means to obtain control. I really don’t care. That’s the key. It is being authentic. It happens to give me complete control as a consequence. More often than not, women are used to guys pursuing them like dogs after a treat. It’s old hat to them. That a guy isn’t so into them and their charms (particularly if they are used to it often) many find a challenge, usually too much so. I don’t advocate indifference as a game, for the game becomes obvious soon enough, if it’s being played. I just don’t care to chase. It’s no game (Self-imposed hiatus from dating). Hope that explains it.
About appealing to women to be authentic and initiate contact - I’m simply saying that if a woman wants to talk to a guy, go talk to him. Just as if a guy wants to talk to a girl, he should. the problem is expecting him to always talk. I think it’s hypocritical to expect people to do things you yourself are unwilling to do (not you personally, but the royal ‘you’).
I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes - no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.
I’m sorry to hear you experienced a dishonest rejection. The thing is, men are expected to blindly put themselves up for rejection every time. You got but a taste of what every single guy experiences multiple times.
vino Apr 16th 2008 at 01:58 pm 85
As an aside….
I enjoy cinn’s posts. They seek to understand. I hope mine convey the same.
Hat Pines Apr 16th 2008 at 02:05 pm 86
I think women on the whole like this double standard, because it is completely about power & control. They have all of it as long as men are expected and agree to put their ego on the line to initiate contact every time. Women can sit back like they are in Nordstrom where the clerk brings them sever different pairs of shoes - no, no , no, maybe, I’ll try that one.. Poly Sci tells us that no one wants to willingly give up power, so there you have it. I think it’s that simple.
and then they complain about where all the nice guys are.
hunter Apr 16th 2008 at 02:22 pm 87
to vino,
I would suggest you continue to study and research human(female) behaviour. Relating to the opposite sex, should involve some work, but it should be fun work. Keep asking and reading up on relatioships, you will find the answers, that you want to hear.
vino Apr 16th 2008 at 02:56 pm 88
Who says I’m looking for answers? Or specific ones at that?
cinnamon Apr 16th 2008 at 10:05 pm 89
vino,
No, what I experienced was rather in the direction of game playing, so I hope you understand that I see red when I see any indication of game playing. Especially in your post 
“I’m sorry to hear you experienced a dishonest rejection.”
I love this one
But I admit I see your approach more clearly now. I would like to believe the intention is the same as my backing off anytime I smell gameplaying (instead of involving meself in it).
By the way, not that long ago someone recommended me a book by Gottman “The Relatonship Cure: A 5 Step Guide for Building Better Connections with Familiy, friends and Lovers”. The book is reportedly based on a very thorough scientific research of communication patterns in successful and unsuccesful couples. I haven’t read it yet, but I just thought of it because I have a feeling the question who should initiate contact is quite similar to the question who should say “sorry” first after an argument. I assume in good couples the question of who should do it first does not exist…