Mar24

Where Are All the Cute, Stable, Successful, Funny, Interesting Men?

08:00 am on Mar 24th 2008 Evan Marc Katz

Filed Under Dating Tips & Advice, Sex & Relationship Advice

Tags: dating, dating advice, dating tips, marriage, relationship advice, relationship tips, single mothers, women and men

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130 Responses to “Where Are All the Cute, Stable, Successful, Funny, Interesting Men?”

1. Markus Mar 24th 2008 at 09:44 am 1

   To Evan’s point Paula, I think I’m a fit, good-looking, intelliegent 38 yo father of 2 young boys. And I love kids and would be happy to be a father figure to your daughter. But, because I pay $800-$1000/month in child support I have trouble making ends meet. So, you’d ditch me. I do wish you the best of luck however. “And here we are again. The door is closed behind us. And a long road lies ahead. Where do we go from here?”

2. vino Mar 24th 2008 at 09:49 am 2

   This is going to be blunt. Evan’s far, far kinder than I’m going to be but hey, he’s the pro at this.

   Paula, IMO, needs a serious reality check. A general observation about her note to Evan - for someone who wants to be married so badly, there’s absolutely nothing in there about what she offers to a potential husband, besides she thinks she’s attractive. I there is a big list of “I wants’ though.

   First, she’s 34 with a child. Having a child will rule out many, if not most men. More importantly regarding her child, she writes, ” . . . from a previous relationship that didn’t work out because my ex BF didn’t want the baby.”

   How is he entirely to blame for the child? Let’s look at that. Last I heard, there were approximately 11 different forms of birth control available to women even morning after pills. She apparently didn’t choose even one. Second, ex-boyfriend could have or could not have used a condom. It could have slipped, broken, etc. (FYI a condom’s a backup, not a primary birth control method). So she had several choices prior to conception: (1) use some type of birth control; (2) have sex; (3) not have sex. Her ex had similar choices, but not nearly the breadth of birth control choices. Not to have a whole pro-choice argument, but after conception, she also has the choice of an abortion also. He has zero say in that decision.

   So to recap - she chose to have sex without birth control, without taking the morning after pill, and choosing not to have an abortion. So she wanted a baby all along. He didn’t want the baby, something she likely knew all along. But he’s to blame for the failed relationship? Puh-leeze. I think she needs to examine her choices regarding this and how that is a turn off to potential suitors. She seems incapable of accepting responsibility regarding this.

   Paula also wrote:

   “I am also very worried that if I don’t get married soon enough while my baby is young, she will never have a father figure in the picture whom she can comfortably bond with.”

   Why is that some other man’s responsibility? It is ex-boyfriend’s. I suspect, but the letter does not indicate, that Paula would want the prospective husband too adopt baby, with all of those legal entanglements & responsibilities.

   Why is Paula having a hard time finding men acceptable to her tastes? I suspect men she would like are staying far away from her, as well they should.

   My opinion.

3. Steve Mar 24th 2008 at 10:56 am 3

   Vino. Please don’t think you have to hold anything back. Let us know how you feel.

4. vino Mar 24th 2008 at 11:59 am 4

   She is asking why there are a dearth of cute, stable, successful, funny, interesting guys for her. Perhaps it has to do with her, not them. Evan is far more diplomatic than I, to be sure. I am pointing out obvious issues I see as a guy evaluating a woman as marriage material. I’m pointing out issues an intelligent guy would look at before deciding to legally get tied up with this person via marriage.

5. TMan Mar 24th 2008 at 02:15 pm 5

   I agree with Vino 100%. He’s blunt, but spot on.

   Also, Paula, you sound desperate. I’m just trying to be honest, girl.

   “I SO desire to get married within the next couple of years or so”

   “I would like to have my “princess day” of getting married before I go completely gray and I look too old” [I would never go out with any woman who calls it a “princess day”]

   ” I am also very worried that if I don’t get married soon enough while my baby is young, she will never have a father figure”

   Paula, in addition to your desire to get married yesterday (which I can guarantee you most guys are finding a turn off, whether you are hiding it or not), the child is scaring lots of guys off. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to be a single mother. I wish you the best of luck. But you have to be realistic: the child is going to be a deal-breaker for 99.99% of the cute, funny, successful guys that don’t already have kids.

   My suggestion would be to look for men that have kids already. Are there dating sites for parents? There has to be. Also, you should really look closer at the guys who ARE going out with you. Are you being too harsh on them?

   PS: Before I get accused of being a misogynist, let me say that lots of guys have way too strict guidelines for dating, too.

6. Steve Mar 24th 2008 at 02:50 pm 6

   
   TMan wrote:
   My suggestion would be to look for men that have kids already. Are there dating sites for parents? There has to be. Also, you should really look closer at the guys who ARE going out with you. Are you being too harsh on them?
   

   This is constructive advice and answering her question.

   
   PS: Before I get accused of being a misogynist, let me say that lots of guys have way too strict guidelines for dating, too.
   

   Misogyny is fearing or hating women. I don’t see expressing the truth that single,attracive, childless and stable men would prefer the same in women plus to be misogynistic.

7. Chris Mar 24th 2008 at 04:45 pm 7

   I am a man who loves children, but will not date a woman with a child with a living father.

   In my life I’ve been such a nice guy that people have taken advantage of me. People have used me for all kinds of things. I don’t want to be used as poor kid’s father figure or financial support.

   Paula dated a jerk, and now someone like me is expected to take responsibility for the jerk’s mistake? I’m sorry Paula, but it’s too late. You can’t use a flashy guy for the baby making and then expect a nice, soft guy to be there for the parenting.

   Say I become a stepdad . . . I put in time, love, and money into my stepkids . . . the wife and I get divorced . . . the stepchild is nothing to me now.

   If the woman were a widow or if I had my own children it would be different, but I’m sorry, I don’t want to date someone who has that much more baggage than I have.

8. Simone Mar 24th 2008 at 05:14 pm 8

   In Vino veritass.

   Steve, you make me laugh!

   But y’all must be really young. Paula is 34. People in their 30s, men and women, have children. That’s the main decade for raising them. So she’ll find lots of guys –never married, divorced, separated–who are willing to consider a relationship with a woman with a child. It’s more complicated, but when you have a kid (or are contemplating it) you realize just how complicated life gets. (Just wait till it’s your turn! Ha!) Beyond 30 you won’t find many people for whom kids isn’t an issue on the dating front, whether they already have them, want them, or don’t want them.

   And since when is a condom a “backup” form of birth control? Keep dreaming, and good luck with that as a strategy. We’ll put you on the AIDS-prevention lecture circuit in Africa. Or in our U.S. high schools, where the rate of sexually communicated diseases is skyrocketing. (You must have been speaking with Elliot Spitzer…)

9. LS Mar 24th 2008 at 06:05 pm 9

   Compromise is a double-edged sword and requires two people to make things work. Each person brings something to the table and in turn leaves something behind. Choosing only based on your own needs is not compromise and that goes to the guys who won’t date women with children as well. Are they not doing the same thing….Making the same judgement?

   LS

10. Simone Mar 24th 2008 at 06:27 pm 10

    Also, Evan, with all due respect to your position — there is another option. And that is NOT settling. Going for the “all or nothing.” Choosing a life partner is a big deal and it is much healthier and happier to be alone, I believe, than to be in a bad relationship. Our society is changing very quickly, and our intimate relationships are being strongly affected by this. 51% of adults in the U.S. are single. Only 25% of households are the traditional mom-pop-kids kind of home. Divorce still hovers around 50%. If you divorce or are widowed, you are more likely to be unhappy and unhealthy than if you had never married. More women graduate from college these days than do men. And last Vino heard, there were 11 different types of birth control available to women. (Other sources of my stats: recent news articles and the book “Singled Out.”) If you have a thriving career and lots of fantastic, supportive relationships outside of a conventional partnership, why would you jeopardize all of the good stuff for something not so great?

11. wildgingersnap Mar 24th 2008 at 06:28 pm 11

    Paula: Whether you’re looking for a job, a husband or a good meal, having time constraints means you are going to have to compromise. Also, it’s hard not to come across as desperate - even if you think you don’t - when you feel the clock ticking.

    Personally, I know and have dated plenty of cute, stable, intelligent, downright amazing men so I’m always a little suspicious of women who say they can’t find any. They may not be tall, making six-figures or the same race/ethnicity/religion as you but they are definitely out there.

    At some point, you have to look at the kind of guys you attract as the kind of guys you’re able to attract. If I were you, I would decide the three qualities that are most important to have in a mate, and then give anyone who is open to dating someone with a small child and has those three qualities a real chance.

12. mrs. vee Mar 24th 2008 at 06:43 pm 12

    Paula, I would have to agree with one comment above that you do sound disproportionately focused on what you stand to gain in a relationship, without balancing out your perspective by thinking about what value you will add to your partner’s life. But it could just be that you were concentrating solely on areas where you feel frustrated about not getting what you want.

    I do agree with Evan that you should look outside your typical range of men to find your soulmate. To be completely honest, I feel most of my still-single friends have been limiting themselves with disastrously superficial criteria. These are sexy, attractive, warm, funny women, mid-30’s and up, who are bewildered and, frankly, freaked out by their singledom. Still, they insist on restrictions like “he needs to have a certain look” or “he has to carry himself a certain way” or else they can’t feel attaction for the guy.

    True, you need to feel attracted to the man you’re with. But attraction is a strange animal. A lot of people claim that they can’t help being attracted to what they’re attracted to, but can’t attraction be influenced by a friend’s opinion, or a flirtatious overture from someone who wasn’t initially on your radar?
    Have you ever spent any amount of time with a person you’re not originally drawn to, but who one day makes an endearing face or tells a good story …or skillfully takes command of a situation and, suddenly, a crush is born? Those’re examples of how attraction can unconsciously develop independent of the instant swoon effect or any running checklist you may keep in your head.

    Experiences and inner values inform what we’re attacted to. Those two things aren’t static, so why should what you’re attracted to be forever unchanging?

    I think you’d be doing yourself a favor by keeping an open mind about whom you date. Good luck!

13. Markus Mar 24th 2008 at 07:08 pm 13

    Wow.

14. mrs. vee Mar 24th 2008 at 07:22 pm 14

    And back to the topic of my single, hard-to-please girlfriends - not that I think this is necessarily Paula - but the common mistake I see among them is that, in evaluating a man as dating material, each one judges a guy from the standpoint of “what it looks like” to a third party to be with him, fixating on his outward appearance or what his job will sound like when introducing him around. They begin to confuse external opinions with the things that are genuinely important to them, often sacrificing deeply held values for the sake of a positive façade.

    For them, a relationship serves the dual purpose of validating their self-esteem, in addition to fulfilling the basic human need for togetherness. And that’s where it becomes tough to find Mr. Right. Locating a decent, reasonably attractive partner with whom you could really find happiness and come to love? That’s a whole lot easier if the guy doesn’t have to solve your insecurities too.

    *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

    Also, to someone else’s point above about how desperation is detectable and a turn-off, even if a woman is trying to hide it, that is true. But let’s face it, it’s tough not to feel a sense of urgency when you feel there are biological and societal imperatives making you feel like you failed if not paired off by a certain time.

    A woman isn’t wrong for feeling afraid of ending up single or alone. That said, she does need to master that fear. That’s why I am a huge advocate of practicing yoga. I know that sounds like it came out of nowhere. What does yoga have to do with finding love, right?

    Well, yoga teaches you to be calm even when doing something extremely difficult or uncomfortable. If you are a woman who is freaked out by the incessant ticking of her clock along with the seemingly scorched earth of the dating scene, try this: Go to any non-restorative yoga class. Move into a challenging pose (under your teacher’s guidance, of course) and then just breathe. Keep your face soft while you’re asking your body to endure the challenge. Accept your body’s limits and be open to any eventuality.

    Right there is the best approximation I can offer for how a woman should approach her romantic life if she’s feeling anxious about it. That’s how one “rehearses” making peace with a painful or uncertain situation. I do believe men can tell when a woman really belongs to herself, and find that quality very alluring.

15. A-L Mar 24th 2008 at 08:07 pm 15

    I’m surprised Evan didn’t mention this, but I would recommend that Paula see someone for counseling. The whole second paragraph reeks of underlying emotional issues that need to be delved into. Why is she bothered that she’s never been married? Why does she wish she was already married? Why does she want her “princess day” and why does she need to look young when it happens? Why does she need a marriage to validate herself?

    Basically, Paula needs to figure out what a wedding and/or marriage represents for her, and then find a way to accomodate that within her current lifestyle. Building a strong social network of friends and family can not only help make her more content, but provide male figures for her daughter as well. By trying to fill the gaps in her own life, she will be happier as she currently is, which will also be more attractive to potential mates.

16. Kat Wilder Mar 24th 2008 at 10:14 pm 16

    Paula sure has it right when she say she wants to be married to the “right person.” What she doesn’t have together is what “right” means.

    No where does she mention the really important things, like her potential husband’s integrity, how he views the world and his place in it, what he stands for, etc. It’s really great if that comes in a package that’s attractive with a good job and a good personality. But he only has the job, personality and looks and nothing else … well, I wouldn’t settle either.

    It isn’t about settling; it’s about being clear about what you truly want. They’re not one and the same. And then you just eventually become another divorce statistic one day down the road …

17. vino Mar 24th 2008 at 11:44 pm 17

    Simone,

    If it isn’t clear, a condom isn’t a birth control device for a woman. It’s for a man. I mentioned that women have upwards of 11, count ‘em, 11, forms of birth control, not including abstinence or having ‘tubes tied.’ (Don’t know the medical term). Men have 3 - abstinence, condom, or vasectomy. So in brief, women have 11 more choices before even choosing to have sex. A condom is simply a backup to those 11 choices, particularly since its failure/success rate is much less than most other forms available to women. My point is if both parties don’t want kids, she is responsible for using some birth control form also, not just him using a condom (read: she is responsible for using it too). Using a condom in addition to (pill, IUD, depoprevarin, etc..) is the best birth control, if sex is to occur. I don’t get where you went with your final paragraph.

    LS has an interesting post. However, her point about guys not compromising in refusing to date women with kids from other men may be true, but I think it isn’t. It’s only true for women who refuse to date men with kids (apples to apples) & no other comparison is valid. The same reasons apply o each sex - becoming the new de facto father (or mother if roles reversed), paying for someone else’s responsibility (Paula’s ex), becoming legally obligated to the child - all of these things are factors in deciding not to marry someone with children from another man or woman. Not to mention that in the dating phase, many people do not want their social lives to revolve around someone else’s child’s soccer practice, band practice, etc….

18. lorelei Mar 25th 2008 at 08:20 am 18

    Vino-sity was right about one thing: if a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, she should take birth control into her own hands and take her own precautions. In that sense, a condom could be considered a Tier 2 level of protection.

19. Single Mom Seeking Mar 25th 2008 at 08:27 am 19

    Paula,

    This advice is coming from the single mom of a seven-year-old… and I’ve been parenting on my own — like you — since she was seven months old.

    Please, please try to separate your need for a romantic, loving, committed partner from your need for a male role model for your daughter. Male role models are out there, and as you say, it’s important to find them for your daughter. How about her Grandpa? an uncle?… She can play a sport. She can take karate.

    Try to separate your daughter’s needs from your own. Once you do that, maybe you’ll begin to attract different men. I’d love to hear what happens! Wishing you the best.

20. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 08:42 am 20

    Simone;

    I am actually older than Paula. I am finding many women Paula’s age who have never been married and who are childless.

    Paula and I are in within each others age range for dating.

    If I got to know somebody who turned out to be a wonderful human being who happened to have kids, I wouldn’t let having kids stop me from having a relationship with her.

    However, if I am meeting new people from scratch, I will choose the cute petite 30 something without children over the cute petite 30 something with children.

    A woman with a child has responsibilities that (rightfully) come first. Less time and attention available for me.

    I take it for granted that women who would be a match for me would consider creating a new life to be a very big deal. That means a woman who exercised reasonable judgment before entering a committed long term relationship which lasted several years before a child was born and was a good enough fit to last a number of years after the child’s birth.

    When I come across a single woman with a very YOUNG child that tells me such a quality relationship did not exist and that is likely a reflection of the woman’s judgment.

    That will not be true for everyone, but as has been mentioned by both genders on this blog ad nausea single people use “profiling” to avoid getting entangled with people who are not right for them.

21. Jennifer Mar 25th 2008 at 08:46 am 21

    I’m with you on your last point Vino. For people who are early-mid thirties and do not have children, i think they are often looking for the same in their mates. As people have been getting married later, they’ve also been having kids later so i think it’s very reasonable to be dating at 30 and not expect everyone to have kids already. That said, I agree with earlier advice that Paula would fare better by looking to date other single fathers.

22. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 08:47 am 22

    Chris;

    Paula mentioned that she is looking for the “full package”, not just a meal ticket and Ken doll for a father. I found your point about avoiding single moms with living fathers of their children insightful. I am going to file that away for my own filters. I am only going to add the exception of single mom’s with responsible ex’s who are still involved with their children.

    Markus;

    I’ve known men who love kids in general, beyond just their own. They are good people without exception. I hope you find what you are looking for.

23. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 08:57 am 23

    Paula;

    I would not “settle”.

    Many couples have a baby hoping that being parents will bolster a lackluster relationship. It never turns out that way. Weak relationships always stay weak relationships.

    The only thing will change that is if the people change.

    I do think many women ( okay, some men too ) are being perfectionists. In addition to TMAN’s suggestion I would like suggest that you investigate if that applies to you and if it does that you work on it.

    Please do not settle. There might be a germ of truth in what Simone had to say that you and your child will better off alone, then alone after a failed relationship. However, if after working on yourself if you truly appreciate who has everything else you are looking for but who is a B, B-, C+ or C as far as looks go then I would say be flexible.

24. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 08:59 am 24

    My apology to everyone for being chatty today.

    I read in the news last week that 1/3 of American teenagers have veneral disease. Please keep condoms in mind, even if getting pregnant without them isn’t an issue.

25. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 09:06 am 25

    Markus;

    In regard to mrs. vee’s posts #12 & #14, I agree with you. “Wow”.

    If Evan ever needs to take an extended brake from this blog… say to do the deed to become a NONsingle dating expert, then I think he has a substitute he can trust.

    Great advice mrs. vee. I think there is a reason why are you mrs. vee instead of miss vee

26. Markus Mar 25th 2008 at 09:34 am 26

    Steve,

    My “wow” response was to the plethora of heartless “your child is an albatross around your neck” posts.

27. vino Mar 25th 2008 at 09:44 am 27

    Vino-sity?

28. BeenThruTheWars Mar 25th 2008 at 09:59 am 28

    All the discussion of birth control is very interesting and for the most part true, but doesn’t address the real fact at hand, which is that Paula DOES have a child. I can’t imagine it’s helpful to Paula preach at length about shoulda woulda coulda at this point. Can you?

    I agree that her criteria for a mate sound narcissistic (all what she wants and needs, rather than what she has to offer someone else); and that her restrictions are too cumbersome to be practical.

    Paula, ideally we will all find a mate whom we can connect with on a physical/sexual level, an intellectual level, and a spiritual level. Those are the big three. Many people settle for two out of three (marrying someone less well-educated, say, and getting their intellectual stimulation at work) and have perfectly happy, functional marriages. Or they find a best friend they can really connect with on a wavelength basis, but maybe the sex isn’t all that stellar. Only you can decide what your true deal-breakers are. If sex and physical attraction is the most important thing for you, fine. Though I will warn you, once the heat and chemistry start waning after a year, year and a half — which they inevitably do in any monogamous relationship — you’d better like the person you’re with or you’ll be in trouble. Also, and I’ve said this before in my posts: the man you are instantly and powerfully attracted to is the one you should run away from the fastest. You are reacting to your fantasy of who the man is, instead of who he really is (which you can’t have a clue about until you spend months together in an exclusive relationship). That’s why a lot of people will tell you that if you are seriously looking for a life partner as opposed to a fling, you will give the men you are NOT instantly attracted to a chance.

    I like the advice about finding other men with young children to date. They will be much more accepting of your child and expect you to reciprocate. A widower with kids would be, in my opinion, a better bet than one paying child support and alimony to a living ex. One caveat: divorced dads, unless they are deadbeats, they will be strapped for cash until the child(ren) is 18, and then beyond, as many divorce and custody decrees stipulate the noncustodial parent is responsible for at least part of college expenses.

    Have you tried Parents Without Partners? It’s a social organization that has regular meetups, some just for the single adults, some that include the kids. A lot of people with kids swear by it. There are similar organizations out there with much the same mission.

    There are men out there who won’t consider dating you because of what they consider to be your baggage (a child). There are also men out there who adore kids and are mature enough to be open to the idea of a blended family. Bottom line, your position has to be, “Love me, love my kid.” THAT is the one area in which you should never, ever settle for less.

29. Simone Mar 25th 2008 at 10:07 am 29

    Vino: If you want to leave your reproductive fate in the ahem — hands– of the woman you are dating (seemingly without commitment, from your posts) go right ahead. But legally you are responsible for any child you father. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. And check your stats on the effectiveness of condoms. I believe you are off there. My last paragraph was regarding Evan’s suggestion that women “settle.” That isn’t the only option — anyone who so chooses can remain single and have a healthy, happy, sex-filled life. It’s more the norm now than ever before (in U.S.)

    Steve: No offense, but that’s you. A lot of guys who are single parents prefer women in their same situation. A lot don’t. There’s room for everybody.

30. vino Mar 25th 2008 at 11:07 am 30

    BeenThrough made the point regarding “shoulda woulda coulda at this point.” It’s absolutely relevant. Evaluating someone else’s choices and more importantly, whether they’ve learned from those choices, particularly regarding children, is vitally important in whether to be involved with them. Fine, Paula has her child. It is fair to say that the decisions surrounding conception, her ex’s role and uninvolvement are flawed, at best. Her blaming of the ex indicates no acceptance of responsibility, let alone learning from these decisions. As someone evaluating whether to date her, it is therefore vital to look at her decision-making process for this, particularly since she’s looking suitors to take on that daddy role, and deal with the consequences of her previous and future decisions.

    Simone: Where did I say I wanted “to leave your reproductive fate in the ahem — hands– of the woman you are dating”??? Answer is I didn’t. your crack regarding “without commitment” is also non-existent, and a cheap shot.

    You are right though - “But legally you are responsible for any child you father.” The problem is that it IS in the hands of the woman. All a guy can do is to wrap it up and/or have a vasectomy. She can lie and say she’s on birth control, she can choose to forget to take her pill, all manner of things. The guy who wraps it up, but is lied to about her birth control methods is screwed. To bring it back to legal terms, it’s fraud. Of course, only in this area is someone compensated for defrauding someone else. I could say more, but why bother? I’ve already pointed out how women have more choices at every reproductive stage, so I won’t repeat them…

    As a guy, if you don’t want kids, I believe you have to be up-front about it and tell she’s absolutely on her own, prior to sex, if she gets pregnant. Now the guy who is using a condom every time is also saying he doesn’t want kids. I’ve heard Tom Lykis say that women who don’t use birth control want to get pregnant, because they want to have a child, but have someone else pay for it (or help pay for it). I think there’s some truth to that.

    These ‘accidents’ don’t just happen.

    FYI - I looked up the success/failure rates - I am correct in that the methods available to women are far more effective than men, so you’re wrong in challenging those assertions.
    Norplant - 0.09% pregnancy rate; or 99.91% effective
    Depo Prov - 0.3% preg rate; or 99.7% effective
    Pill - 5% preg rate; or 95% effective
    IUDs - 0.8-2%; or 98-99.2% effective
    Condoms - 14% preg rate; or 86% effective

    This all comes back to the decision-making process for the people you are dating. If he/she makes questionable decisions regarding such large matters, you have to weigh whether you should date, let alone, marry them. For you will then have to deal with very real legal ramifications.

31. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 11:17 am 31

    BeenThruTheWars;

    You had two good points:

    1. People come here for advice, not to have other people vent their own dating frustrations at them. Although, the information gathered from looking at those vestings can be extremely useful.

    2. The now well known fact of the brain chemicals of romantic passion wearing off in about a year. Seems like the basis for a good rule of thumb. Don’t commit to anyone until a year has passed and you can get an honest look at them without the haze of passion interfering.

32. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 11:54 am 32

    Vino;

    Thanks for the stats on birth control effectiveness. Interesting!

    You have a great point. Part of getting solicited advice is having people make sure you understand why you got into your position in the first place. That is the reason why I mentioned my preference ( & those of other single childless men ) for single childless women. So that Paula would understand why the cute, employed, and nice guys may not be buzzing around her.

    You wrote that you are not a professional advice giver and that you have no problem with being blunt. Even allowing for that it sounds like you are being a bit hard on her.

    People make mistakes, big ones and dumb ones.

33. Chris Mar 25th 2008 at 12:42 pm 33

    Steve,

    I liked your distinction between a woman who had a child in a long term relationship or marriage and a woman who had a child after something less enduring.

    “a woman who exercised reasonable judgment before entering a committed long term relationship which lasted several years before a child was born and was a good enough fit to last a number of years after the child’s birth.”

    Though it would be financially harder to raise a widow’s child, I think that I would be more likely to date a widow than a divorcee/never married mother. It’s not anyone’s fault to be widowed. Perhaps the children would see me as their real father, and not a stepdad.

    If the father were living and responsible I *might* date the mother, but if the father were a deadbeat I’d have a major problem dating the mother.

34. Steve Mar 25th 2008 at 01:16 pm 34

    
    Chris Mar 25th 2008 at 12:42 pm 33
    I think that I would be more likely to date a widow than a divorcee/never married mother. It’s not anyone’s fault to be widowed.
    

    Chris, the divorce rate has been standing at about 50% for a long time. The way I see it not that many people can be losers. I would give divorced women a chance (find out why they got divorced ).

35. vino Mar 25th 2008 at 01:47 pm 35

    Steve,

    I may be hard on her. Here is why - Though it does not explicitly state, her letter gives me the impression that Paula got pregnant without boyfriend’s consent, because SHE wanted to be married and with kids. This quote sums it up:

    “I am bothered by the fact that I’ve never been married. I SO desire to get married within the next couple of years or so, but I want it to be with the right person. I wish I was married about 5 years ago or so. Like virtually all women, I would like to have my “princess day” of getting married before I go completely gray and I look too old.”

    I’m connecting the dots a bit, but I get that nagging feeling she got pregnant to ‘trap’ him into marrying her for her reasons and benefit. It just smells fishy to me. If you couple her choice not to use birth control with her desire to SO get married, preferably 5 years ago, I think you have an unpleasant situation, one that Paula should understand is of her making. It’s also one that stable, intelligent, successful men would understandably avoid.

36. Zann Mar 25th 2008 at 01:49 pm 36

    Great posts by all. There’s a ton of useful, solid information here for anyone single, regardless of age, gender, with or without children. But for Paula specifically — I believe the worst possible criteria for seeking and selecting a partner is how they will satisfy YOUR need — not your daughter’s — for a father figure in her life. First of all, it assumes that the nuclear family model (a mom & dad, married, with kids) is the ultimate wholesome environment for raising happy, stable kids & living a happy life. This is simply not true. Sure, our culture is permeated with messages that preach this to us, but the statistics do not support it. There are all kinds of families now, and that’s a good thing. And there is nothing wrong with raising your child on your own, gathering whatever support is available from friends, relatives, counselors. I applaud people who choose going it alone over desperately searching and often settling for a partner to be a substitute mom/dad. Paula, forget the past, forget the blame or bitterness about your situation and move ahead. Be open to wise support, educate yourself on parenting issues, take responsibility for your child (who had no choice in this matter), and get in love with yourself. You’ll be a great, reliable parent regardless of whether you ever marry. Don’t depend on the “odds” or your youthful looks or the trends in dating/mating — things over which you really have no control. And being a parent doesn’t mean you can’t have adult relationships, including a vibrant sex life, but it should be separate from or supplement your parental obligations and with a partner who suits your intimacy needs, not your perceived wishlist for a second parent to your child. And finally, if you’re allowing yourself to be ruled by the unsolicited advice of friends who claim they want to help but actually make you feel like a loser if you don’t have Mr. Right on your arm, you’re going to be very disappointed. Don’t forget, those advice-givers go home at the end of the day and live their own lives, not yours. Good luck and stay strong.

37. vino Mar 25th 2008 at 01:50 pm 37

    Divorce rate depends on where you are

    In CA, it’s about 73% or so.

    Don’t love those odds.

38. sunray Mar 25th 2008 at 03:56 pm 38

    To the people who mentioned that Paula should not “settle” because it is better to be alone than be in an bad realtionship have totally missed Evan’s point. When he says settle….he means (correct me if I’m wrong Evan) date someone who is 5′7″ (not the 6′0″ you require) if he treats you well and meets most of your other requirments. Settle does NOT mean date someone who slaps you around and/or ignors you just to say you have someone!

    I agree with the comments made about someone in their 30s w/o kids not wanting to date a peer with kids. I’m a 30 year old sucessful attractive woman……pretty much the girl version of what Paula described in her letter and I would not date someone with kids. I’ve done it before and it just hasnt worked out. The thing with dating someone with kids is that it gets annoying (I know I’m horrible..but its the truth) when you want to pick up and go somewhere (to a play, restaurant, etc.) and you have to hear I can’t b/c I have to find a sitter for the kids, or I can’t b/c its my weekend this week, or I can’t b/c____(fill in the blank)_____ For someone who doesnt have kids this gets old real soon.

39. Anonymous Mar 25th 2008 at 04:21 pm 39

    I love how several of you (you know who you are) have been making inferences about what the birth control situation was in the case. I would like to point out that none of you were in bed with this woman or her ex. Vino- how are you so sure that this guy did in fact use a condom? He could have trusted HER ability to take birth control (which, in case you were not aware, needs to be taken at the exact same time every night, which is easier said than done with the variability in peoples’ schedules). This ties into your point about fraud. Yes, technically lying about being on birth control to have a kid is wrong, but your argument about fraud does not hold water with me because the male ALSO has the responsibility of utilizing birth control to prevent a pregnancy. If he does not wear a condom, he is entrusting the fate of his sperm to the woman. Is it wrong for women to lie about that sort of thing? Absolutely, but if he gets burned by HIS poor decision of relying on the woman to take her birth control precisely at the same time every night, to remember to even take it every night, etc, then it’s his own damn fault too. You seem to forget that your arguments work both ways. Also, you make it seem as though it is faulty of women to choose not to date a man with kids, yet when a man chooses not to date a woman with kids, it’s a very logical choice (as inferred from your little apples-to-apples comment)…how is this so? Women face the same issues (i.e. legal entanglement, etc.). This isn’t the 1950’s, females make are financially independent now too.

    With all of that being said, I do agree that bashing her ex so much speaks to her decision-making, and perhaps her maturity too. You’re also right that is no man’s responsibility to support another man’s child; however, just because a woman has a child does not mean that the child is always the consequence of a bad decision. Just some food for thought, since you all seem to have such strong opinions about this woman and her situation.

40. Simone Mar 25th 2008 at 04:28 pm 40

    Vino: You don’t cite your sources, but if you look up the various forms of birth control on Wikipedia you will find the actual rates according to “typical use” (meaning, in reality, not in a lab, allowing for user error) are:

    Pill–8% failure rate
    Condoms — 10-18% failure rate (pretty close to the Pill, eh?)
    Diaphragm — 10-39% failure rate
    IUD– 0.8% failure rate (but not used much in the U.S. — strange)
    Sterilization–under 1% failure rate
    And, good news for you, since you are very into this: a male contraceptive pill is under development. That should alleviate your worries about all those manipulative women out there who are just so desperate to be impregnated. And the reason that I assumed you were engaged in uncommitted sex is because it’s hard to believe that someone would be so black and white about who should/shouldn’t bear responsibility for birth control in a committed relationship. Women get pregnant — there are pros and cons to that on both sides of the gender equation. If you don’t see how vulnerable women are b/c of their part in procreation…well…that’s just staggering and more the idea you find in men who aren’t very experienced in relationship. But that women have MORE options, so the responsibility is theirs is weird logic to me.

    But if you are afraid of being manipulated and taken advantage of, you have options. You aren’t a victim.

    Also, another stat: 25 million people worldwide have died of AIDS. If they had used condoms they wouldn’t have. Condoms are the ONLY form of birth control that both protects against pregnancy AND sexually transmitted diseases. In that regard, maybe it is the bst form of birth control.

41. Simone Mar 25th 2008 at 04:55 pm 41

    Oh, the other thing about the Pill and other estrogen drugs — a lot of women can’t take them for various medical reasons. The estrogen-based drugs can be very hard on some women’s bodies, and barrier methods are the only options for these women, should they choose to engage in sex. (Personally, I LOVE the idea of a male contraceptive pill — let’s just put all this “trapping” business to rest, shall we?) But as it stands now, women get to decide what to put into their bodies (which drugs, which penises, etc.), and women get to decide whether or not an abortion is an acceptable option for them. For millions of women the world over, it is not. This is not my political belief speaking here, I am just reporting, to use Evan’s phrase. So the whole pregnancy/birth control issue isn’t a slam dunk right or wrong — and this is the kind of thing that two mature people need to discuss when they enter into an intimate relationship. And yes, it goes the other way, too — let’s say you’re in an intimate, committed relationship and you decide you WANT to get pregnant. Nature may go along, or it may not. And you have no say in the matter. And you certainly have no say in the timing. (Just talk to anyone trying to get pregnant.) Human reproduction is a mysterious, quixotic thing, and if anyone thinks they can control it, more power to ‘em. I would guess that most of us were an accident — or at least a surprise, given the how unknowable human fecundity is.

42. vino Mar 25th 2008 at 05:00 pm 42

    Anonymous,

    I never said he did use a condom. I grant it’s possible that in their 30’s they never discussed who wants kids and when, but my experience is that it is unlikely with someone you are dating in your 30’s. Hell, the girl I just met, that was in the 1st conversation, and we’re not even ‘dating’ yet.

    Likely knowing the boyfriend didn’t want kids, Paula had many methods of birth control available that do not require taking a pill at the same time daily. Simply put, when several methods are available that are 98%+ effective that aren’t ’same time daily’ necessary, she could use one of them. FYI, the info I got from the FDA site re: effectiveness included possible mistakes in usage of methods, meaning that even if Paula took her pill at 10 instead of usual 9, it is still a 95% effective.

    So if she forgot to take her pill at the right time, and the 5% chance of pregnancy occurs (assuming she didn’t take morning after pill, as she should if serious about not wanting child). Why would she not take the abortion route? In effect, she now changed her mind re: having a child, something HE now has to deal with, because HER whim changed.

    You are right in that he bears responsibility for potentially entrusting her with birth control. Men in general are stupid for trusting women regarding procreation because they have no control over the process once sex occurs, particularly if she changes her mind to give him a new life responsibility for 18+years. The responsibility he bears in proportion to the decision-making control in this process is simply very inequitable and unbalanced.

    Does she not bear responsibility? Particularly if she knows or has reason to know boyfriend does not want kids. This circles back to the fraud argument.

    I also think you misread my comment regarding dating someone with kids. It’s not faulty of either sex to choose not to date someone with kids for the reasons you and I cited. I think we agree on that one.

43. Simone Mar 25th 2008 at 06:28 pm 43

    Who is telling anyone to have sex? Abstinence is the only 100% way NOT to have a child you don’t want to have. After that is sterilization. If you can’t find a woman you trust not to steal your sperm for her own nefarious, procreative purposes, and you yourself don’t want kids–don’t stick it in or get sterilized. It’s really very simple.

    Please. Grow up.

44. Single Mom Seeking Mar 25th 2008 at 08:34 pm 44

    I’m completely floored — especially when it comes to men like Vino — by the female-bashing-attitude here.

    That Tom Lykus quote shows a lot of narrow mindedness. I love reading Evan’s blog because of the thoughtful comments… what’s going on today? Your tone of many men here is one of: this woman took advantage of this poor innocent man so she could make a baby, and he didn’t know what came over him… Excuse me, but where is the man’s responsibility in all of this?

    Let’s see at least one of you men stand up, please. Show that you do have some role in having sex with a woman.

45. Delia Mar 25th 2008 at 09:50 pm 45

    Simone, I Agree with Simone!

    >

46. LS Mar 26th 2008 at 01:23 am 46

    It seems you have been rather busy since I last looked at the sight.

    LS,

    Vino,

    My point was to bring to light is a non-gender specific point. I’m of an older age group than most of you here, single (never married & no children) and have been Internet dating for 4 years now. I have to say that well over 90% of the guys I have met have children of varying ages. A fact of life for me.

    In my last job I attended my boss’s wedding. He had been married before with no children. They met at time where she was divorced with two small children (under 6) from a previous marriage. They fell in love and married. The interesting thing here is he wanted a family and she security. As the years passed I watch this family bond into one. The moral of my story is that when two people meet who connect there is nothing else on earth like it. The rest just falls into place and those things we thought we wanted are but a faint memory. Compromise at it’s best.

    LS.

47. TMan Mar 26th 2008 at 03:24 am 47

    @BeenThruTheWars [28]. You wrote:

    “There are also men out there who adore kids and are mature enough to be open to the idea of a blended family.”

    Please don’t confuse “maturity” with a willingness to date women with children. The two have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

48. Simone Mar 26th 2008 at 04:06 am 48

    Thank you! I thought I was losing my mind here. Re: Vino’s stats that he says I am wrong to question (why would I be “wrong” to question anything? Isn’t questioning what intellectual freedom is about?) — the Pearl Index (referenced on Wikipedia) has different stats that put the effectiveness of condoms and the Pill closer together, and there condoms are not the “much less” (depending on how you define that term) that Vino promised in his initial post about it unless you are talking about the rings/IUD (female implant-type forms of contraception), which do have a high rate of effectiveness. But sterilization, which is also a medical procedure, has a higher rate of effectiveness. (Not sure why Vino discounts that method). But, too, an article from 2007 says that the rates of effectiveness re: oral contraceptives are now being challenged (i.e., “questioned”) because the incidence of unintended pregnancy has been much higher with the lower-dosage-estrogen forms that have become popular over the last decade.

    Those lower-dosage-estrongen forms have become popular b/c they have many fewer (as I define that phrase) negative side effects. If you read the FDA site that Vino cites, you will also see the list of many negative side effects that can go along with all of the female forms of birth control. (The condom has fewer negative side effects, but I suppose that is a matter of gender perspective.) And the site also shows the only form of birth control that effectively prevents the transmission of STDs — the condom. And seeing as certain STDs affect women only (and very seriously — as in, making the woman infertile) and men can be the carriers without seeing any effects (chlamydia, HPV), the debate about who should be doing what to prevent what and who is “defrauding” whom takes a different turn.

    So let’s see — acc. to Vino and his ilk, we women should all go out and spend the money and have the procedure for the “most effective” form of birth control (the implant types), suffer the side effects, expose ourselves to STDs, and (if we get pregnant), be accused of fraud. All for a date with a “my way or the highway” kind of guy. And what are we getting out of this again? Oh, right. His sperm. Sounds like a swell way to spend an evening!

49. Steve Mar 26th 2008 at 05:24 am 49

    Single Mom Seeking;
    Vino is the only man making the allegation that Paula may have gotten pregnant out of wedlock intentionally. Please don’t generalize to “Your tone of many men”. That only makes you as much a bigot as other people.

50. Markus Mar 26th 2008 at 05:43 am 50

    I’m going to check out this “parents without partners” thing. Thanks.

51. Chris Mar 26th 2008 at 06:41 am 51

    I think common sense says that we should date people who have similar desires for having or not having children. Sorry, but Paula should not have been with a guy who didn’t want kids. Sometimes a “Cute, Stable, Successful, Funny, Interesting Man” might not be someone who wants to be a father.

    If a man gets a woman pregnant it’s his legal responsibility to provide financially for the child and his moral responsibility to provide emotionally. If he is a good person he should even propose marriage, unless he knows there’s no compatibility there.

    If a woman has the misfortune to have an a*****e for a babydaddy, I’m sorry, I’m nice but not a saint, I don’t want to get involved with her.

    If the father were a decent guy . . . . this might sound horrible, but genetics are a big deal for me. I want to be a father not just for the for the joys of parenting, but to pass on my genes. If the child weren’t genetically related to me I would hold back in many ways.

52. Steve Mar 26th 2008 at 08:24 am 52

    
    Simone Mar 26th 2008 at 04:06 am 48
    Thank you! I thought I was losing my mind here. Re: Vino’s stats that he says I am wrong to question (why would I be “wrong” to question anything? Isn’t questioning what intellectual freedom is about?) — the Pearl Index (referenced on Wikipedia)
    

    The content on Wikipedia comes from anyone who holds a Wikipedia account. Anybody, regardless of education or affiliation can get a wikipedia account for free. The idea behind Wikipedia is to have a community encylclopedia, where the community ( the entire planet ) contributes to the content. In theory inaccuracies are weeded out when readers find them for themselves, create an account, log in, and issue a complaint.

    This works for articles popular to the internet crowd, but less popular articles tend not to get viewed as well as scrutinized as much and can stay in need of correction for months, if not years.

    Wikipedia is a great place to start a search for knowledge, but it isn’t a place to find the last word or a solid citation for an argument.

53. vino Mar 26th 2008 at 09:02 am 53

    So I just sat down with my coffee after a late night, and I’m greeted by invective from Simone towards me, which I find interesting.

    A couple of points to clarify -
    I’d welcome male contraception. I think most guys would.
    STDs are outside the scope of the discussion.
    Guys should use a condom every time.
    Women should use SOME form of birth control if they don’t want kids.
    Men are legally on the hook, no matter what.
    I also find it unbelievable that sexually active women also wouldn’t have the morning after pill around as well as a backup.

    Simone’s histrionics about about ‘allergies’ or side effects are, I believe, disingenuous. It’s as though she indicates women who don’t want to get pregnant can’t choose one of the 11 or so methods due to these supposed side effects or allergies. Is she insinuating that women CAN’T use birth control at all because of all of these factors?

    “I’m completely floored — especially when it comes to men like Vino — by the female-bashing-attitude here.” It’s not female bashing. It is pointing out differences in choices and the disproportionate responsibilities. It isn’t wrong to point out questionable behavior no matter the sex, is it?

    “That Tom Lykus quote shows a lot of narrow mindedness.” - I said there was some truth to it. Wasn’t exactly a ringing endorsement. Don’t misstate what was said.

    “Excuse me, but where is the man’s responsibility in all of this?” No one said he isn’t. Legally he is, whether lied to or not. this goes without saying. That’s part of the point.

    “Let’s see at least one of you men stand up, please. Show that you do have some role in having sex with a woman.” Please try and make a point, not call guys cowards. It contributes nothing.

    More to follow…

54. vino Mar 26th 2008 at 09:12 am 54

    Keep in mind we are talking about people in a relationship, so it’s presumed there is some minimal communication there. If he indicates he doesn’t want kids at this time, she is therefore under a duty to also be clear with him and tell him she is or isn’t on some form of birth control, so he can choose whether or not to have sex with her, condom or no. If she isn’t and they have sex with him knowing this, he accepts the risks condom or no, because she wants to be pregnant on some level, not taking contraception of some sort.

    However, if she is on one of the many available birth control forms and they still choose to have sex, the likelihood of pregnancy is reduced greatly to almost nil, particularly if he uses condom.

    Here’s where it’s tricky - She stops taking pill, IUD, whatever she’s using and doesn’t tell him or even improperly uses the method. He still doesn’t want kids, and is under the belief she still doesn’t either. SHE knows the higher risks of pregnancy now. If HE doesn’t know, he can’t make an informed decision. So if the condom slips, breaks, and she doesn’t do morning after pill and becomes pregnant, this is understandably a shock to him. She, in effect, takes his ability to choose away from him. He’s duped, because he didn’t know and couldn’t know because of her actions. That is being defrauded and victimized. Only in procreation is someone who is defrauded still held responsible for the child. It happens every day. It seems Paula’s situation fits this paragraph more closely than others.

    This last paragraph is the situation at issue. The lack of communication so he can make an informed choice is the problem. Why the static on this? I thought women loved communication

    Bring it back to the Paula, I suspect she always knew her ex didn’t want kids. Apparently she did. So knowing that, she didn’t take it upon herself to go find someone who did want kids. Rather, she chose to have sex with a guy she likely knew didn’t want kids. Take his role out of it for the moment, you have to question that decision, big time. As a guy evaluating someone’s decision-making regarding something as important as procreation, that is a hugely questionable decision. One most guys don’t want to deal with…

55. Evan Marc Katz Mar 26th 2008 at 09:24 am 55

    Let’s keep it civil, kids.

    And to be clear, Vino is not “woman bashing” if he points out something critical of women, anymore than one is inherently anti-semitic for criticizing Israel’s foreign policy. They can easily be misconstrued, but they are not one and the same.

    This board is dominated by women, but that doesn’t mean that when intelligent men present a valid perspective from a male POV that they are doing anything wrong. If anything, they get attacked just for presenting a differing vantage point and this needs to stop.

    Pointing out that women can hijack a man’s life because of a contraception mistake is not saying “Women Suck!” but rather, that 18 years of child support is a disproportionate price to pay for a bit of lust if she chooses to keep the child. Noting that a man may choose to avoid single mothers due to the complications is not an insult to single mothers, as much as an observation that people like to keep things simple and baggage-free where possible. Our personal feelings about these statements are almost irrelevant - Vino is speaking HIS truth. As Verbosity did before him.

    So please, let’s agree to disagree without insulting the other party. Everyone should feel comfortable stating his/her opinion without being insulted on here.

    Thank you all for your regular levels of intelligent contribution. You make me proud!

    -The Management

56. vino Mar 26th 2008 at 09:32 am 56

    Thanks, pop! Verbosity??

57. Single Mom Seeking Mar 26th 2008 at 09:35 am 57

    Yes, this post is getting quite the response!

    Thanks, Evan, for the reminder to keep it civil.

    Of course, I respect any man who says that dating a single mom isn’t right for him. Thanks for being so clear about what works for you, and what doesn’t… Really, in the end, it saves us (single moms) a lot of time and energy.

    In my case, dating as a single mom has not been an issue. Many readers have pointed out that there are plenty of single dads out there who want to date — as well as single men who find single moms very attractive.

    As everyone else pointed out, I wouldn’t get involved with anyone — single parent or not — who is still battling with an ex, emotionally or legally.

    Steve, I do appreciate your thoughtful comments. Sorry if I got a little hot-headed up there.

58. Ceilisundancer Mar 26th 2008 at 10:06 am 58

    Well, this has been interesting. We don’t know how long or committed Paul’s relationship was, or the situation with that. Clues can be picked up, and could be explored with her by a man who would otherwise be curious to know. Doing that, I think is fair to both, while I think making assumptions would not be. (Oh, and Vino, I personally am not aware of any birth control I as a woman am medically okay to take/use other than the condom and one other that’s not total abstinence or surgical. Really. I would possibly die within my first month or two of any hormonal one. This wasn’t the case years ago, but it is now. Yet, I find the BC conversation an distraction thread. I DO think that controlling for potential STD’s and potential pregnancy should be discussed, in advance, by the couple involved.) My former fiance, a man I knew since we were 14, a man who discussed wanting to have children with me, and I had an “oops” when we were 32. He freaked, unable to handle having a child right THEN. Now, almost 15 years later, she just spent half of Easter break with him, and her half-sister, et al. I do hope that the 1-year old that Paula has will eventually learn to know his/her dad, that the dad will decide that he does wish to be part of this child’s life at some point, even if now he doesn’t wish to be. Oddily, originally, I had strangers asking me if I wanted them to marry me, as in the swooping in rescue my baby and me. That was weird. Some guys, no, they either didn’t wish to or were not able to handle dating a single mom. Fine. Their choice. I agree that once one has a child, any potential mate has to accept that one does have that child. That is not to be settled on. The parent has a right to a life, including romance, while the child’s needs DO have to come first. Even now, with her a teenager, her needs differ greatly but the man I’m seeing knows her needs come first (as do his kids / grandkids). Many decent men and women are out there who are in a stage of life where having a stepchild would be fine, perhaps even great, for them. (Many even obtain rights and/or emotional connections that last beyond the marriage.) I ahve two dads myself — my late father, and my stepfather — it’s okay to have two dads or two mom’s. I agree that a single dad may be a good match for Paula. It’s helpful if the children are in similar stages, but not a requirement, just as dating a partner helps if that partner is in a similar stage of life. Showing negativity towards ones ex is not appealling, for anyone. I’m not clear that Paula’s worked out her emotional issues in regards to her ex, and men in general, or not. When a person’s more confident with herself, not feeling that NEED to be mated, she (or he) becomes more attractive. I think the compromising part is appropriate if someone is more interested in one goal, than whether or not someone is a bit older or “stable.” People get laid off of work a lot, however, can he pick himself back up, emotionally and financially, may be a better yardstick (or can she)? I had to laugh at the “too geeky” and “too old” bit. Being geeky is typically not bland, but complex and interesting. While it apparently bores Paula, I find it CAN be quite appealling. Oh, and I don’t rule out anyone due to age alone. Some really great guys out there just a few years older or younger, or more than a few. Also, there is no rush. Not really. I hope Paula can relax, enjoy her child’s younger time, and seek out other good male role models in the meantime, and perhaps a future husband and/or the child’s dad, will come along, also.

59. Alan Mar 26th 2008 at 10:14 am 59

    I’m not quite sure why the discussion spiraled, presumably from half of a sentence in Paula’s letter, into a lengthy consideration of the benefits and detriments of various forms of birth control and who bears the various burdens involved in birth control and child-upbringing. (I couldn’t bring myself to write “child-rearing.”)

    That being said, I enjoyed reading the various comments, opinions and responses, though I doubt that the birth control discussion will be of much use to Paula.

    I’m a big fan of “compromise” and I think Evan’s advice is spot on. A lot of it comes down to priorities. If you highly value something (being in a relationship or having a child) and you’re too picky, your best bet is to compromise - tone down your “requirements” and see what else you can find. How much do you value success (being in a relationship or having a child) over luck (waiting until you happen to meet Mr. Right)?

    If you’re happy with what you currently have, then clearly it’s not such a high priority and you have no reason to compomise. However, if you really want it, you may have to compromise in order to achieve it. Sometimes it’s called being pragmatic.

60. Sierra Mar 26th 2008 at 11:10 am 60

    Paula,

    I have been reading all of the responses from the various people and I have read your letter a few times; so that I might grasp what you are truly saying.
    I am a divorced single mom to a little girl. My relationship did not work due to abuse. My daughters Dad does not see her very much. I wanted you to know that I completely understand where you are coming from with wanting to find a man to marry, and be with you and your child. But I urge you to do the same thing I did. I had to reach a point in my life where I stopped looking for that “perfect man”, and starting concentrating more on myself and my daughter. Being the Mom I needed to be for her, and not worry so much about Mr.Right. Eventually he will come along, probably when I least expect it. But what I found to be true is that, if I am out there looking for it; I tend to run into all the worng men. It is true what they say that most men don’t want to be with a girl who already has a child. But the ones that do, are far worth the wait. The ones that have a problem with it?? Well, our children will always be our children, and we will always be their mom. Men come and go…. So, why waste the energy on a man like that.
    Be patient girl…You will find your husband, and a Father for your child. I promise!!

61. dadshouse Mar 26th 2008 at 01:02 pm 61

    Paula asked a great question: “Why am I having such a hard time in finding someone who is mutually interested in me whom I find attractive, who holds a steady decent job AND has a decent personality?”

    Forget that she’s a single parent - I think a LOT of people ask this same question. Being a single parent just makes dating and “settling” on a partner a little more complicated. As a single dad, I know.

    Why is she or anyone else having such a hard time meeting the right one? I think part of it is our technology-focused way of life. There are too many people sending their romance wish-lists to match.com, conversing online with strangers, staring at their Blackberry in a coffee house while waiting for a pre-arranged meeting. What happened to the fine art of engaging others in real life conversation? (I ask this while typing a comment from my computer into a blog to be read by people I don’t know… which just goes to show, I’m like everyone else.)

62. vino Mar 26th 2008 at 04:31 pm 62

    Alan wrote:
    “That being said, I enjoyed reading the various comments, opinions and responses, though I doubt that the birth control discussion will be of much use to Paula.”

    Alan may be correct, but I brought up her decision-making surrounding her child’s conception to point out potential errors she made, how they’ve contributed to her situation, and, more importantly, whether she’s learned from them.

    Examining her role in this may lead to wisdom, as opposed to her words of “…a previous relationship that didn’t work out because my ex BF didn’t want the baby. I have never been married.” My not so subtle suggestion is that unless she really learns from this, she’s unlikely to attract someone closest to her ideals.

63. lorelei Mar 26th 2008 at 05:09 pm 63

    I don’t believe vino-sity or any other male on this thread is guilty of female bashing for simply stating a preference for an unencumbered partner. I similarly tend to shy away from men with kids, although I don’t rule them out entirely.

    I do, however, believe that no one can say one way or the other what Paula’s situation really was when she got pregnant and kept her baby. , And to make assumptions about what she was thinking when she had her baby- especially ones that ascribe sinister intentions to her choice - is mean-spirited and does nothing to advance anyone’s argument.

    I think as a blogging community, we should also be very careful to not put words into other people’s mouths.

    As the old saying goes, when you assume, you make an ‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’.

64. Simone Mar 26th 2008 at 06:04 pm 64

    Steve: Wikipedia and other open source sites are excellent sources of information. The good ones (like Wikipedia) cite the sources and the level of expertise of the source. I never said to use WP as the final source in a discussion; in the discussion re: BC I said to refer to The Pearl Index, a third-party source of independent research on birth control that is CITED on Wikipedia. Re: the FDA numbers — I couldn’t verify them. The FDA site I found was using data from 2003 (old in medical terms) and, of course, b/c it is the FDA, only discusses product research. Not all forms of BC are “products” on the market, so The Pearl Index info is more comprehensive and I like it better. My choice as a consumer of information.

    Vino: I never said anything about allergies as a side effect. “Don’t mistate what was said,” to echo your words. But as the other poster pointed out, many women have very severe side effects to hormonal forms of birth control. It ain’t candy. Funny, though, how you dismiss this and STDs and the broader issues/uses of contraception as being unrelated to the discussion.

    But kudos to you for always using a condom. I’m sure that you use it properly (check the expiration date, buy the right size, use a non-petroleum-based lube, hold onto the edge while you’re pulling out). If so, your effectiveness rating jumps to 98% acc. to all the data regarding “proper use” of condoms. That means you can have quite a bit of sex with any spermicidal maniac of your choice without worry — the failure rates are calculated acc. to the number of pregancies per couple in the study — not number of pregnancies per act of sexual intercourse. (When used properly, 98 couples out of 100 became pregnant over a year of use — who knows how many sex acts that study entailed? Probably a lot.)

    And Paula, I know many, many men who would fall for a single mom who had sex with a fellow who turned out to be a deadbeat dad. Hang in there!

65. T Hatch Mar 26th 2008 at 06:13 pm 65

    This is a little change of pace from the previous posts. I’m not here to criticize Paula, or anybody else for that matter, but rather to make an observation that might help her in her search.

    What struck me when I read Paula’s letter was how focused she was on physical appearance. Most obviously, she equates “chemistry” with physical (essentially sexual) attraction. But even when she’s not talking about a potential partner, it’s all about looks. For instance, the only personal details we learn about Paula are her height, weight, hair color, and the fact that she’s “cute”. And she wants to get married before she turns gray or looks too old.

    If you go back and read her original letter carefully, it’s remarkable how little she talks about anything else (other than economic potential). Not even the familiar cliches like “just as comfortable in a black dress or jeans” or “enjoy hiking/biking/travel” or “love to laugh” make it into her post. In fact, we know nothing of what Paula is looking for in a partner, other than that he’s hot.

    Of course, it’s entirely possible that Paula is very sensitive to issues other than the purely physical/sexual, and it just so happened that the way she wrote her letter created a misleading impression. But, as a general rule, if someone is given an opportunity to express themselves however they want, and they spend all their time talking about physical appearance, then it’s usually a pretty safe bet that physical appearance is a very high priority for that person.

    So, I’m wondering if the reason why Paula is having a hard time finding a suitable long-term partner is because she’s making her choices based on a criterion that doesn’t necessarily have a whole lot to do with long-term commitment.

66. Simone Mar 26th 2008 at 06:24 pm 66

    Evan–I’m a little shocked by your POV that 18 years of child support is a “disproportionate price” to pay for a little bit of lust and that somehow the guy is the victim in that. What about 40 weeks pregnancy, 2 years of breastfeeding, 18 years (also) of child support, plus the cooking, cleaning, doctoring, mentoring, etc. AND the lifetime of stretch marks and other permanent bodily changes that the woman takes on. Getting pregnant is a HUGE deal — it’s not a head cold and abortion is not an OTC remedy. Also, in my experience, it’s the guy who is always pushing for sex, trying to overcome the woman’s objections, trying to score and all too willing to “flake” without any thought for what he left in his wake. Disproportionate? What are you talking about? Sex is serious business. The fundamental purpose of sex is not entertainment — a mere nightcap at the end of a cheery day. It involves three people — the man, the woman, and the potential child. It isn’t a game, much as dating seems to turn it into one. Women seem to know this — a lot of men just don’t seem to get it, though. This thread has been a real disappointment.

67. Evan Marc Katz Mar 26th 2008 at 07:08 pm 67

    Simone,

    I’ve never said sex is a game. I’ve never advocated for irresponsible behavior. And I’ve never minimized the effects of a baby on a woman. This is all stuff that you’ve put in my mouth - and every other guy’s mouth who disagrees with you.

    And you’re forgetting one very important thing - in fact, the ONLY thing that matters when we’re talking about the “disproportionate price” men pay for an unintended pregnancy.

    The woman is CHOOSING to go through pregnancy, carry the baby to term, and raise a child. The man is not.

    And if her CHOICE to have a baby and raise a young adult impacts him FOREVER, then yes, his life has been hijacked against his will. Is it a mistake if he doesn’t wear a condom? Sure. Is it a mistake if she doesn’t use birth control? Yep. Is it a mistake if there’s tons of alcohol involved? Most likely. Do most people want to pay for a mistake FOREVER? Nope. Not at all. And that’s what you’re failing to acknowledge, Simone.

    See, it’s not about assigning fault to the man or woman. It’s about seeing an objective reality. Both parties make the same mistake, but instead of the man having a choice in undoing the mistake, the woman decides to have the baby. Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. She has a choice. He has none. If the roles were reversed - if you had a one night stand - and you had to pay $300,000 for it over 20 years - you’d be pretty damn pissed.

    It’s easy to think of this from only your perspective, but you’re only getting half of the picture. And if this blog serves any purpose whatsoever, it will be to illustrate one thing to every single reader: your point of view isn’t the ONLY valid point of view. It’s just your own. Others have a different life experience that informs them. If you’ve been burned by men, you’re more likely to find fault with men. If you’ve been burned by women, you’re more likely to find fault with women. And if someone disagrees with you on here, or anywhere else - try LISTENING instead of telling him that he’s wrong. Because there’s a REASON he feels the way he does - it’s not just some arbitrary whim designed to piss you off.

    The same advice, obviously, goes for men who fail to understand women’s needs.

    Oh, and by the way, Simone, unless you’re planning on conceiving a child, the fundamental purpose of sex IS entertainment. That’s why there are so many forms of birth control. And why everyone really ought to be careful out there.

    Thanks again for your contributions.

    EMK

68. A-L Mar 26th 2008 at 08:47 pm 68

    A man’s been out drinking, and thinks he can make it home safely. Before he gets there, however, he hits a pedestrian, seriously injuring him. He’s got one of two choices. Drive away, and let him die. Or take him to the hospital (or call 911) and face drunken driving and possibly manslaughter charges or a huge lawsuit if the man survives. Which should he do? He does have a choice here, in fact he’s been making several. He CHOSE to drink. He CHOSE to drive. And then there was an accident. I would hope that everyone on this board could agree that the man should make an attempt to save the man’s life and accept the consequences of HIS choices. The same thing holds true for a pregnancy. Yes, the men are correct that a woman has a choice to have an abortion, but for many they feel it is murder, like walking away from the seriously injured pedestrian. So though it’s a choice, for many women there’s really only one answer. They accept the consequences of THEIR choices.

69. A-L Mar 26th 2008 at 08:58 pm 69

    And Evan, I can’t resist responding to the last part of your post. I wouldn’t use the word “entertainment” to describe the fundamental purpose of sex. It’s a physical act meant to build trust, create intensely strong emotional bonds, and develop comfort between two individuals that also is a great form of stress release and physical euphoria. By describing sex as entertainment you relegate it to those last two features I described, when it’s really supposed to be the whole enchilada.

70. Evan Marc Katz Mar 26th 2008 at 09:28 pm 70

    Thank you for making my point, A-L:

    You write about what sex is MEANT to be.
    I write about what sex usually IS.

    Readers who complain about this blog are usually focused on how things SHOULD be. I generally try to report on how things ARE.

    Far too much time is spent yelling at the opposite sex for not doing what WE want them to. That same time would be better invested understanding WHY they do what they do. And if you’re not willing to concede any ot