Sep17

Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women?

08:05 am on Sep 17th 2007 Evan Marc Katz

Filed Under Uncategorized, Sex & Relationship Advice

Tags: dating, relationship advice, successful women, women

Read More...

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100 Responses to “Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women?”

1. Shari Sep 17th 2007 at 09:38 am 1

   Hi Evan!

   I discovered what you’ve written through taking a self evaluation test. I got these lists of great traits for myself: persuasive, risk taker, competitive, pursues change, confident, socially skilled, inspiring, open & direct. Then on the next page were what you label downfalls, or what the test said was the way people who don’t think exactly like me may see me: pushy, intimidating, overbearing, restless, impatient, manipulative, abrasive, reactive & dominating. Those were some hard words to swallow. It was hard too facing the fact that though I didn’t see myself that way, some others did.

   I think it’s not that these smart, successful women are exactly those things either, but they are perceived that way by some - not all - of the men they come in contact with. The trick to that is knowing how the man you’re with is perceiving you, and being able to tone down or turn off the traits he might find as reason to dump you for someone more agreeable.

   I used to think this was dumbing myself down, or playing to the masses, being fake, or not true to myself. But what I realized is there’s a reason they call this the dating “game” and if you want to play, you have to learn the rules.

   This doesn’t mean I’m not who I am around men, it just means that I use the same skills in my personal life I learned to use in my professional. There are some meetings I can go into and run the show, and others where I have to be subordinate. So I knew if I could learn how to do that professionally and make a success of myself, that I could learn that personally too.

2. BeenThruTheWars Sep 17th 2007 at 09:53 am 2

   In Washington, where testosterone is found in the air in greater parts per billion than oxygen, the word “bitch” is an acronym. It stands for, “Boys, I’m Taking Charge Here.” And that’s what happens when women try to “take charge” in a romantic relationship in the same way that they take charge in the workplace. They can’t seem to find any worthwhile men who will stick around long enough to appreciate their many stellar qualities… because they are behaving in a man’s eyes like one of the other dudes he has to spend all day doing battle with. How tiresome. Like it or not, a different approach is called for in the romantic arena. (”Men are different than women” — repeat as necessary.)

   Ladies, it’s not a matter of giving anything up, or altering who you are in any fundamental way. It’s a matter of accepting that “He wants to be the boy” on dates, and letting him, for the sake of nurturing that spark that’s so critical to success in romantic relationships. We female go-getters work alongside men all day long — taking tons of initiative, being aggressive and competitive, putting out fires and ruling our little corner of the world with unswerving confidence and aplomb. But when the 5 o’clock whistle blows, it’s time to switch roles… if you want to be in a happy, peaceful, compatible, long-term relationship with a masculine energy man. Find your own feminine energy reserve and embrace it. Learn to compartmentalize! Try it. What do you have to lose? Remember that famous quote about “the definition of insanity… ”

   If you want to go on “being the man” regardless, hey — more power to ya. Date guys who are dreamers and have no drive, who like to nest and pick out wallpaper (or sit home and drink all day and watch sports on T.V. instead of working for a living). They will savor be taken care of while you go out and slay those dragons to put meat on the table. If you truly are a masculine energy woman, things should work out great. If not… at some point you will burn out, feel drained and start resenting your man for not slaying a few damn dragons himself once in a while. Yes, you can kill your own spiders in the bathroom at 3 a.m., you’ve done it forever, but doggone it, wouldn’t it be nice if someone ELSE took over sometimes? Unfortunately, that’s the point at which conflict starts… it’s not what either of you signed up for, so you both wind up miserable.

   I found your remarks so telling, Michelle: “When I am not interested in them, they work for the relationship day and night. When I am committed to them and act nice and devoted, they start to look elsewhere.”

   I know Evan is not a fan of “The Rules,” but… what you are describing is the classic push-pull male/female dynamic that is so aptly described in that series of books. When you make the man do most of the work to capture you, he pulls out all the stops. He feels challenged and alive. You’ve given him a job to do! And by golly, he’s gonna do it. He’s going to win over the fair maiden. When we pursue men or present ourselves on dates as their equivalents, and advertise our many accomplishments instead of looking, smelling and sounding pretty and graciously accepting what THEY have to offer US, the opposite happens. We take their jobs away from them. They don’t feel that spark, they feel like they’re out with one of the boys, so they go off in search of someone who will make them feel strong and noble and good about what they have to offer a woman.

   If you want to really understand why your successful career strategies don’t carry over into the romantic realm, study Patricia Allen’s “Getting to ‘I Do.’” I think you’ll recognize yourself (painfully so) from the very first chapter. There’s a lot of food for thought in her approach, which is all about the masculine vs. feminine energies Evan so aptly described, presented with ways to identify which you truly are, deep down, and adjust your dating strategies accordingly.

   I was in your shoes. Completely and totally. Over-the-top bright, successful, financially set, my career life an embarrassment of riches. All those things are still true of me… but it wasn’t until I completely overhauled my dating approach that I found the love of my life and true happiness in a wonderful marriage. I still have to work at it every day; I find myself trying to be the leader, telling my husband what to do and how to do it. I have to bite my tongue and let him at least have a turn sometimes. I don’t view it as being submissive or giving away pieces of myself; instead, I am giving him a wonderful gift: letting him be HIS truest self with me. (And not nagging him. That, too, is a gift!)

3. Paul Sep 17th 2007 at 10:02 am 3

   I think in this context women are reaping a little of what they have been sowing. You really hit the nail on the head when you said it is pretty difficult to be a man these days when there are a whole generation of women asking “why do we need men”. It’s a shame. This isn’t exactly the age of the man, it’s the age of the woman if anything. Excuse me if I sound a little resentful, I admittidly am. Over the last 50 years or so our roles have gotten reversed and our society is suffering for it, and so are these women. We’ve got a whole bunch of men who are afraid to be real men, and women who are afraid to be real women. It could be said that they are getting exactly what they wanted; independance, careers, etc and these are the by-products of that movement. Much of what women have acheived are what WE are supposed to be out there acheiving! We are the ones who are supposed to be out there slaying the dragons for you ladies! For every woman making $50K +,there is a man who is not, and trying to support his family. Do women really want Mr Mom? Deep down they don’t. Not really. It’s not natural. But being a strong leader type is not exactly politically correct or honored in todays culture is it? Either is being in charge, yet that is what we as men are wired for, that is why we would rather have a woman who agrees with our opinions rather than have a bunch of her own. In the end, woman want and need to be loved unconditionally, and men want and need to be respected unconditionally. If we could get back to that, we’d all be a lot happier in our relationships.

4. tom Sep 17th 2007 at 10:37 am 4

   Count me against the men who ADORE strong, independent, intellligent women. But also count me as someone who finds many of them can’t get out of their professional shells when dating. From my own experience a reasonable number of professional women have a tough time letting their hair down and when with them seem to feel as if I were attending a 24 hour Martha Stewart festival. Now, the professional women who are genuine, authentic, intelligent, DOWN TO EARTH, affectionate, caring, nurturing, supportive and fun to be with…that’s an irresistible combination in my view! Heck, ANY woman with those qualities is worth keeping!

   I’m every bit as successful as Michelle and so am very comfortable around money and success. But in the final analysis the size of the pocketbook, the position in the boardroom, the model of the car does absolutely nothing to make a woman appealing. Is she fun? Does she let her hair down? Is she open to actually getting her jeans dirty during a vigorous, picturesque hike? Does she relish it when I play with her hair, or moan it’s no longer perfect? Does she set aside some time to actually listen to me, or is she answering her email, texts and cell phone calls constantly? Is she affectionate, or is she always in professional form even when away from the office? Is she secure enough in herself to date men who may not fit her “ideal” as far as their own professional stature, weight, height, etc., is concerned, or does she limit her choices to men with very narrow external preferences? Is she open to more than the missionary position and mind blowing oral sex and great fun in bed, or mechanical and routine?
   Will she at least pretend she loves giving oral sex and moan every once in awhile, or is she real quiet and making it obvious it’s a chore?
   Can she handle it when I am being just a guy, or judgmental on every small detail? Is she incessantly reminding me about my flaws, or actually gets a kick out of them? Does she realize sex is a great way to get intimate with a man, even through we know intimacy is a great way for a man to have sex with a woman, but will indulge me nevertheless since sex is on our minds 23.99 hours of the day? Is she on a constant search for clothes and material improvement, or will she actually attend an event with me she may not like?

   I empathize with these two women. Yes, there are men who are very insecure around successful women, but there are hordes of quality guys who are very secure around successful women and I suspect Catherine and Michelle have been too narrow in their search for the right guy. Most of the “right guys” have a flaw or two or more (maybe an extra 10/15 pounds, maybe they are short, maybe they work in jeans instead of a suit and tie) and it is because of these “flaws” they are often written off, for some successful, professional women, in my experience, deceive themselves, as Ev rightfully hit the nail on, that because those attributes are traits making a man appealing, it makes them appealing as well. It doesn’t. Men want to spend time with women who still have a little girl in them, occasional mothering (we love our mothers and still need a little TLC from time to time and that’s not being insecure, it’s just being a guy), and who admire them for the men they are regardless of the professional status of either party in the relationship. And like Ev said, and maybe most importantly, we don’t want to be judged, that’s the quickest ticket for a lady to be out the door, whether we are successful ourselves or not. The ladies who are successful with men are usually those who are the least bit judgmental (I realize my own hypocrisy when making this statement for we are all making judgmental statements whenh making a comment on this excellent forum).

   Speaking from personal experience, I suggest both of these ladies should enroll with Evan. It’s helped me immensely.

5. Kitty Sep 17th 2007 at 11:52 am 5

   Evan,

   Well said and congrats on being able to use yourself as an example. I have def put myself into the “I’m such a catch, what’s wrong with all the men who are intimidated by my superior intelligence” catagory. Recently I’ve begun leaving my professional self behind and thinking about being more feminine and nurturing and not having to be such a smarty pants…and it seems to be working.

   Keep up the honest work Evan.

   Kitty

6. Jules Sep 17th 2007 at 12:02 pm 6

   Evan, I think that you offer some really good insights and really hit the nail on the head with this post. I could see a lot of myself in Michelle and have a tendency to really enjoy talking business with men. I have been told by a girl friend that this sometimes puts men off, especially when I can contribute intelligently to a conversation we are having about their job/career. After reading your post, I could see how my ‘intelligent, direct and successful’ demeanor can come across as something different to guys. I think this happened with one guy I dated last year where eventually our conversations about work became a turn off to him.

   Anyway, while keeping myself from being a shrinking violet, I have been learning to let my guy be the man or let him feel like he is in charge. I am certainly not acting submissive, but I’ve been learning how to let him take the reins and steer. I don’t always have to be the one driving. So far it’s working a lot better for me.

7. Naomi Sep 17th 2007 at 12:24 pm 7

   Evan,

   Your response to Michelle and Catherine may be empirically true to some extent — that is, that strong, successful women are not as attractive to some men because these women display traits that are turn offs to guys and lack traits that some guys are looking for. However, your proposed solution — that women should tone down undesirable traits and work on developing more desirable ones — is what I take issue with. Instead, why not propose that men should work on being okay with a woman who is his equal in terms of power, opinions, intelligence, and status, and, indeed, that we all should work towards bringing more gender equality to our personal relationships? This approach has been taken over the last several decades with success in education, employment, and other public arenas, and we continue to work on making more progress in these areas. Why should women have to change to accommodate outmoded male preferences born out of stereotypical, traditional gender roles?

   And of course I would make the same suggestion regarding your advice to “nice guys” who feel as though they have trouble dating. Instead of men like Jason working on beefing up their masculine traits, perhaps the women who reject them should work on accepting men who are conciliatory and don’t feel the need to dominate them.

   The personal is political; as long as sex-role stereotyping plays a role in personal life, it will continue to limit options in public life.

   Naomi

8. krzysztof Sep 17th 2007 at 06:16 pm 8

   Naomi,

   I agree with you that it’s unfortunate that some men are turned off by strong and successful women. But your advice, and the comparison to public life it is drawn from, are both misguided.

   You suggest that we handle the issue of men being turned off by successful women by… convincing men to be turned on by successful women. Sure, but if that were feasible we likely wouldn’t be having this discussion. And how exactly should men go about “working on” changing what they want in a partner?

   The personal in this case is not political; it is—well, personal. That is why the analogy to reforms in the public arena is off: the public arena, being public, must weigh everyone’s preferences equally. It is not surprising, moreover, that such reforms are achieved through legislation. I am not sure that the equivalent means of approaching men’s sexual preferences would be all that desirable… In other words, standards in public life are driven by considerations (fairness, equality, justice) that are absent from sexual preferences. The reason why sexual preferences remain personal (and why they should) is because they don’t affect the collectivity in the way that say, education opportunities do.

   One thing that I do think (and hope) will happen is that the very reforms you mention in education and employment (and one might add politics), will slowly drive a change in sexual norms and men’s preferences.

   Until then, women who find that their success drives men away are left with two choices: tone down those traits, as Evan suggests, or keep looking for someone who will appreciate them. The latter may be healthier. And men attracted by strong, successful women exist (I’m one of them).

   krzysztof

9. Moxie Sep 17th 2007 at 06:31 pm 9

   I’ve received similar advice letters like this and always have one standard response.

   “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”

   Any time I hear a female client say that she thinks that she “intimidates” men due to her education, career, demeanor or looks I can immediately pick out at least 5 other, more tangible, reasons for why she has a hard time connecting with men.

   Hear this: Men are NOT intimidated by a strong, independent, successful and/or outspoken. They are, however, completely turned off by a ball buster. Many women failt to see that line between being outgoing and aggressive, confident and arrogant, outspoken and opinionated.

   ” However, your proposed solution — that women should tone down undesirable traits and work on developing more desirable ones — is what I take issue with.”

   Stop right there. See what you’re doing? You’re debating. You’re arguing. In your first sentence you agree with what Evan said, then you turn around and pick apart his argument and turn it into “but why should I compromise who I am?” Nobody is suggesting you lower your standards. What we’re suggesting is that you should try to increase your options. Do you want to be right? Okay, then don’t complain when every guy who comes within a foot of you quickly tires of your 24/7 dominant personality. The key to any good relationship is a willingness to be vulnerable and to submit. It’s the key to flirting. Somebody has to lead or else you’ll both be stepping on each other’s toes throughout the whole song. As an alpha female myself, I can tell you that even my female to female relationships require that oen of us be willing to bend and acquiece at times. We do that because we care about each other and prefer to avoid conflict. I’ll bet you do that with your female friends, no? So then why is it compromising if you do it with a man?

   There’s a reason why two magnets, when positioned the same way directly at each other, repel and why, if you turn one of the magnets 180 degrees, they click.

   Women with a distinctive male energy often confuse men. Sure, they can visually see she’s a female, but all of her non-verbal cues (posture, facial expressions, tone of voice) are distinctly male. That confuses the male brain and can trick the brain into treating you and “seeing” you as a male. The sam ecan be said for women when dealing with a “nice guy.” They’re “seeing” his female energy - the submissive, demure, vulnerable part of him. That’s why we’re not attracted to them usually.

   At least that’s what I think.

10. Evan Marc Katz Sep 17th 2007 at 06:35 pm 10

    The primary reason, Naomi, that I advise individuals to tone down their individual traits, is because that’s a realistic solution. Change starts on a personal level, yet most people are always screaming for everyone else to change. That’s not how it works. If a man asks me for advice, I’m going to tell him what HE should do differently - not what WOMEN should do differently, and vice versa. Would the world be a better place if men and women truly embraced equality in all of its forms? Sure. But I’m not going to make that happen. Let’s work on taking care of what we can do as individuals instead of screaming for tens of millions of people to change years of societally ingrained behavior.

11. NML Sep 18th 2007 at 02:25 am 11

    Evan, I read your blog every day but I must say that this has been my favourite post so far. One of the particular reasons why I like your posts is because coming from a male perspective, you’re refreshingly honest.
    Every day I explain to women that much of the issues that we have going with men are our own projections. Yes there are men out there that do feel threatened by some of the qualities that these women mentioned, but these women are focusing on these qualities as if it’s all that encompasses them, and that their looks and these qualities make up for any perceived ‘negatives’. I always ask “What could you be doing differently?” It doesn’t remove what someone has done but it lets you have the responsibility of change because we’re the only people that we can control.
    The issue of ‘needing’ men is a fundamental, hardwired requirement that is unlikely to change. Needing or wanting a man and even leaning on him a little doesn’t make you less of a woman, or less independent. It’s called life and relationships.
    It takes the ability to look past the surface, resume type stuff and take a deeper look at ourselves to know what we’re really putting out there. I used to think I was unlucky in love with the same qualities that those women spoke about but on further reflection discovered that I was commitment-phobic, aloof, and I had sh*t taste in men!
    Men and women have ideas about what they think are the perceived qualities and characteristics for being an optimum partner but we are often wide of the mark. We need to get back to basics and be real.
    Thanks for a great read this morning!

12. Bev Sep 18th 2007 at 04:50 am 12

    I see the true problem here. Not that I’m smart at all but thru life, I have realized that women are being stronger in more masculine ways simply because men have not done their part and we have HAD to take over. We didn’t want to, honest to God. In my last relationship, the guy was at my house 90% of the time. Would he ever notice that the pool needed cleaned or even keep his bathroom clean? NO!! It caused great resentment because I had added pressure from this and the good stuff was too minut to overcome it. Result: better off without him.

13. Andrea Sep 18th 2007 at 07:39 am 13

    Moxie: Your comment “Women with a distinctive male energy often confuse men. Sure, they can visually see she’s a female, but all of her non-verbal cues (posture, facial expressions, tone of voice) are distinctly male. That confuses the male brain and can trick the brain into treating you and “seeing” you as a male.” resonated with me. Something clicked. I get it.

    After the last guy I dated told me “it” wasn’t there for him I wondered if I wasn’t “girlie” enough, if the fact that I like ‘guy’ movies, sometimes drink beer, act like one of the guys and got along well with his guy friends were turn offs in a sense even though I’m very girlie in a visual/physical way. This experience framed how I interpreted your comment. This is good. Sometimes I forget to “tone down” certain characteristics even though I know that I need to.

14. Baggage Reclaim - Dating, singles, relationships, sex tips and advice blog for men and women. » Who do you think you are? Sep 18th 2007 at 08:24 am 14

    […] at Advice from a Single Dating Expert, Evan responds to a few readers who want to know why men don’t like strong, successful women. […]

15. mrs. vee Sep 18th 2007 at 11:21 am 15

    If I may offer up one alternative perspective from my personal experience…

    It seems people are drawing a strong correlation here between women who are strongly critical of the men they date and those “Type A’s” who turn off men with their success and masculine energy. So, before anyone goes any further conflating the two issues, let’s separate them.

    1) It’s an issue for a woman to constantly berate the man in her life and make him feel he’s a disappointment to her. This type of behavior is NOT limited to professionally successful, “masculine energy” type of women. I know plenty of girlish mothers, aunts & girlfriends of all tax brackets, who suffer from this issue. In fact, I suspect it’s more a problem with the female communication style in general than with relative degrees of gender-specific success.

    2) It’s a different (but occasionally related) issue for a woman to expect her suitors to be captivated by her Curriculum Vitae and then explain away a failed date with: “He was just intimidated by me.”

    To preface my story, I too, once fancied myself as a bit of a prize - cute and well-educated. I set high goals for myself and reached them. My professional life came surprisingly easy to me, and thus I generally walked around very impressed with myself.

    So anyway, in my late twenties, I found myself seriously involved with a man who wanted to marry me. He was charismatic and funny, intense and intelligent. There was only one small problem, though: I couldn’t stop finding things wrong with him that I wanted to change. He was tactless. A mama’s boy. He had obnoxious friends. He was poor. He was vain. He was afraid of being misunderstood, so he talked incessantly. His constant anxiety had an effeminate energy to it, and so conversely, his “bawdy” tendencies (i.e. flirting with/ogling other women) seemed incongruous and compoundingly off-putting.

    We spent the last months of our relationship in battle. I’m sure I was driving him nuts because – to his credit – he was trying to improve himself for me and consequently walking on eggshells all the time. And I was driving myself crazy because, instead of focusing on the poor guy’s positives, it was like I was forever meditating on his faults.

    When it ended, I was a complete mess. I didn’t like the nagging shrew I’d become in the relationship. I’d totally lost sight of why we were together in the first place. And because I’m the self-reflective type, I took perhaps more than my share of the blame for the demise of our relationship. I concluded I’d been too “Type A”, and needed to tone it down for the next guy. For all the reasons people are talking about here, I decided I should have spent my time “loving and supporting” him, and “not challenging” his shortcomings. I’d felt that perhaps my personal accomplishments had only amplified his insecurities and vowed to keep them tucked away next time.

    My point is that it turned out I was making the same error in thinking that I see running through this discussion thread. People are unnecessarily connecting the dots between a woman being proud of her success and being overbearing/critical. They’re conflating Issue #1 and Issue #2.

    Here’s what I learned: My conclusions were wrong. After I broke up with the man in my story, I had about two other boyfriends before meeting the one I married. Since Story Man, I found I didn’t have to conceal my (*eyeroll*) “personal power” from the men I dated. Not one of them elicited from me the desire to nag or correct them. It wasn’t my high income or forwardness that led to problems. Today, my lovely husband earns a little less than me, but he wins about every other argument. He never felt threatened by my tax bracket or the property I owned. He tears down and rebuilds the deck, mends fences, assembles bikes for me, dominates us athletically, provides valuable input for all decisions we make as a family, but he still encourages my successes (because they’re OUR successes, really). He was right for me. He was easy. And just like Evan deserves an easy girlfriend, so do we all, no matter how gender-bendingly successful we may be.

    Looking back, with Story Man, I don’t say to myself “I wish I’d toned it down and hadn’t nagged him for the sake of the relationship”. I just shouldn’t have nagged him PERIOD, and gotten out of the relationship as soon as I realized I couldn’t accept his flaws unconditionally. We could have saved months of heartache. With no disrespect to him, I’m glad I broke up with Story Man, because I believe he’s happily involved with someone else now, and it ultimately paved the way for me to meet the dreamboat love of my life.

    It’s not that I disagree with the advice given in this discussion thread. If you are a forceful, accomplished woman who attributes her relationship failures to male insecurity, then please do sit up and take notice of the valuable advice dispensed here today.

    If however, you are a successful woman, currently with a partner you often find yourself frequently fighting with and wishing were somehow different… if your relationship is characterized by a struggle to suppress your critical thinking faculties… well, yes perhaps you’re letting your Type A tendencies rule your perspective on the relationship and you could choose to try toning it down a bit. But consider also that some men are close, but quite right for you (and some genuinely do need to change ), and you could choose to simply move on. The solution isn’t always to suck it up and persevere 100% of the time. From my experience, having faith, an open mind, the courage to let go of a bird in hand, and a LOT of patience will lead you to a loving man whom you won’t want to change a thing about.

16. Susan Sep 18th 2007 at 02:37 pm 16

    Evan,

    What a great blog! And, as always, it’s interesting reading everyone’s comments. When I first read the two letters that opened this post, I definitely felt a jolt of recognition. But as I read further, and then all these comments, that feeling has faded.

    You see, that whole “men are intimidated by your intelligence” thing is something I’ve been told by well-meaning friends my whole life. But I don’t buy it. Honestly, I’m probably reasonably up there on the intelligence scale, but mostly I’m just a very curious person. I read constantly. I go to physics lectures for fun. I’m very cultured. I persue very “intellectual” pastimes because I’m interested and curious. But I’m not well-educated, particurally successful, wealthy, or aggressive in relationships.

    I don’t nag. I don’t criticize. (I’m far too insecure to be a difficult woman.) Also, I’m very, very feminine, i.e. long hair, dresses and skirts every day, loves to cook, and extremely affectionate. So, yes, some folks might think I’m a brainiac, but I still read the occasional Dean Koontz novel. I’m hardly an intimidating person. My point is, not all intelligent women are Type A individuals. We’re not all any one thing. I think Evan’s advice is good, but he still hasn’t told me that secret advice that fixes my whole life. I’d better keep reading the blog.

17. Moxie Sep 18th 2007 at 03:02 pm 17

    ” (I’m far too insecure to be a difficult woman.) ”

    And therein lies your challenge. If you can see and identify your insecurity, then you can bet that your non-verbal communication and non-verbal cues reveal that to whomever you’re talking to. Lack of eye contact, posture, soft voice, rapid rate of speech (inquisitive is great, just don’t fire off questions.)

18. MollyB Sep 19th 2007 at 04:35 am 18

    “Just someone who makes his life EASIER and more pleasant.”

    Are women allowed to want this as well? Mis-match on this front seems to be the real problem.

    Most of the men I know value strong, successful women. Complaints to the contrary sound legit, but IMNSHO mask the woman’s own fear of commitment.

19. Camilla Sep 19th 2007 at 11:08 am 19

    In my relationship, I desire nothing more badly than to be able to turn off the type-A switch at night. Running a company, being my own sole source of support, paying a mortgage, and staying up on home repairs by myself is *exhausting.* I really miss feeling protected and loved, and would adore a man that wants to lead much/most of the time. To surrender and let go a bit would really balance me out. I *crave* that.

    That said, I find that many of the men I meet aren’t as strong at leading as I need. I find that they either want me to lead (turn-off for me) or they want a woman who is weaker than they are.

    So while I agree that strong women sometimes need to turn the leadership off, that alone seems like half the solution. For me, I’m also looking for someone who is naturally strong. I can tone down my own alpha-tendencies, but not to a level that is even weaker than some of the passive men I’ve been meeting.

    I’m a strong woman that is silently begging to be led.

20. JimmyE Sep 20th 2007 at 01:58 am 20

    Camilla. the kind of men who want to lead are by definition ones who want a woman who is weaker then they are.

21. Camilla Sep 20th 2007 at 11:04 am 21

    JimmyE: Gotcha. I think I just need to find a man can be stronger than me. Then we’ll both be happy!

22. Ruth Sep 24th 2007 at 07:32 pm 22

    After reading this thread, there is more confusion than ever. The successful men you know who are partnered, do they have partners who fit the descriptions mentioned in the article and responses?

    Area they all in easy relationships? Are all, or even most, of their partners lacking in the traits listed above as undesirable? Do their partners make them feel superior, allow them to always lead and protect their egos? Not in my experience. That means there may be something else at work that is not being addressed.

    I am 50 and ,like Camilla, would cherish a fella who appreciates who I am, and who recognizes that I appreciate who he is, too.

    All successful single women are not bulldozers outside the workplace. Isn’t it interesting that is the automaic assumption, but a successful single man is not attached with any such prejudice?

    Another question, Why does leading involve a weakest link? In most personal relationships, leaders change with the circumstances, depending on what one is good at. Some are better at driving, others better navigating. Why/how is it emasculating to share leadership based on who has is the most capable in a particular area?

    I am involved in several male dominated groups, and the one consistent factor is, the ones who are married or in committed relationships are not partnered with their equals, typically ‘marrying down’. Yes, there are a few equally partnered, but the percentage is in the single digits.

    The thing they privately (meaning not in the company of the partner)complain about is also consistent, the women spend too much money, don’t understand the man, and there isn’t much they can talk about once they exhaust the kids/house/checkbook issues. When asked why they stay in what sounds like mostly unfulfilling relationships, the reaction is either astonishment at the thought, or they can’t answer and give a blank look. Some of my male friends have actually asked me why their partners can’t be more like the women in our group!!

    The flip side of that is, most professional women I know are also not partnered with their equals, also ‘marrying down’, with similar complaints as the men above. However, when asked why they stay in the relationship, the answer most often given is, there isn’t a better choice, they would love a more fullfilling relationship but it’s better than being alone.

    This is not intended to sound arrogant or self grandizing and is difficult to write with the tone intended. Certainly none of us are without faults and weak spots, but I have had relationships with men who admit that I am what they thought they wanted. They have many compliments, and no big complaints. But, in moments of honesty, they admit they need someone who needs more fixing (an actual quote).

    I don’t know if this is a generational issue, but most of the successful men I know are partnered with women who’s issues are much more intrusive than what has been described in this blog as undesirable. I have even been told, “You are great catch, I am just not ready yet.” And then they married someone whom they could complain about. I have considered that was said as just an excuse, but enough time has passed and subsequent conversations that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    Just like men, sucessfull women mostly want to the appreciated for who they are. The message running through this blog subject seems to be that is the perogative of men, but women have to adjust to the man’s perception of what a relationship looks like or be alone.

    Since there are so many more choices for a partner for men then for women, it seems the women are ones who will have choose between playing the game of changing or hiding who they really are, or being without a partner.

23. Hadley Paige Sep 25th 2007 at 08:06 am 23

    Why don’t men like smart strong successful women?

    Speaking only for me >> smart I find attractive, strong I’ve got a problem with if strong means challenging me on everything. I get plenty of “challenging” at work from my male coworkers. What I seek in a woman for an LTR is kind, nurturing, feminine, fun, thoughtful, sexy, etc. I don’t need or want strong.

    I believe that there is an inverse correlation ( to what degree is debatable) between women & their degree of “success” and the likelihood of finding the qualities I most value in a woman. Of course I am willing to take every woman as the individual they are but over time I have found the above observation to be largely true. I suppose its unfortunate for successful women if I represent the majority male view.

    There are many mutually exclusive choices that we must make in our lives. I believe that this is one of them for women who wish to be in successful LTRs. (of course there may be a significant minority of experiences to the contrary.)

    Bottom line for me is I want to be supported emotionally not “challenged”. It exhausting.

24. HS Sep 25th 2007 at 12:41 pm 24

    Just so I understand:

    Strong Man - admirable as a leader, someone to respect
    Strong Woman - a challenger who makes men uncomfortable and is less feminine, nurturing, sexy etc because she has a bunch of her own opinions and is independent

    Men - to be attractive to women can be kind, nurturing, masculine, fun, thoughtful, sexy, etc, strong and have opinions
    Women - to be attractive to men must be kind, nurturing, feminine, fun, thoughtful, sexy, etc . . . but NOT strong, independent or have opinions

    Men - Can be nurtured and emotionally supported and still be successful in their careers
    Women - Must choose between career or to be nurturing and emotionally supportive to a man - but not both - also cannot be nurtured or emotionally supported if it doesn’t fit the man’s definition of masculine support/nurture.

    Men - Get to have partners who agree with their opinions and not have “a bunch of their own”
    Women - Get to be partnered only if they agree with their partners opinions without having “a bunch of their own”

    Men -Don’t have to choose between being themselves and having a loving, commited relationship
    Women - Have to choose between being themselves and having mutually loving, commited relationship

    Guess that about sums it up!

25. Camilla Sep 26th 2007 at 09:52 am 25

    HS: You’re smart as a whip! *lmao*

26. Hadley Paige Sep 26th 2007 at 12:36 pm 26

    To HS:

    Having your own opinions is fine. Expressing repeatedly every preference that you can identify or “point you need to make” regardless of how small, stupid or inconsequential they are is not fine.

    Women don’t have to choose between a career and a man, they have to choose between being opinionated, argumentative and independent (vs appreciating the qualities that men are about & being a woman who complements these qualities rather than mirroring them) and a man.

27. Freya Sep 27th 2007 at 08:17 am 27

    In my opinion, I don’t think women should have to “hide” or “tone down” traits. I can see it would make life “easier”, but only if you are looking for a return to times when the search for fulfillment of an idealised relationship was a social expectation.These days I think we can be more honest with ourselves and not have to feel pressured to try to fit in with expectations … though that honesty is a social learning curve, as is this forum … and one consequence of living in such times being that it should not be an issue of a comparison of traits between men and women per se, so much as an honest look at what each of us really finds attractive in a partner. In other words, a comparison of traits you have, and traits you crave in another, regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.

    This may make it hard to find a perfect fit, but then if you are busy “hiding” traits you certainly won’t get off to a great start to find someone that truly suits you! The trick is to use your intuition as a guide rather than be critical of the potential partner … accept that no one is perfect anyway, but do not compromise to the degree that you are hiding traits hard won. There are many shades of grey, and I myself am an example of a woman who both embraces very feminine qualities, but also is proud of the fact that I have a great survival instinct, and have developed more “male” skills that have enabled me to get through life to date. In fact, not just get through … but thrive on my own terms!

    As a consequence, I am not looking for a man I can project those hard earned traits onto, pretending they are not mine (I don’t like to play games) but am actually attracted more to sweeter, gentler, quieter guys. After reading all the posts above, I realise I’m looking for the same traits men apparently are in a woman, yet I’m heterosexual. I actually have had a long term relationship with a guy like this, and was very happy! Pity he ended up falling for an even more aggressive female!

    My point is, this issue is not black and white, and so the solution is not one thing or the other, but simply an honest questioning of what traits, traditional or otherwise, you are looking for in a partner of either sex, and being open to finding that.

28. gsh Sep 29th 2007 at 12:52 pm 28

    I keep seeing the word “nuturing” crop up in terms of what men want out of women. If I understand the implication correctly, men are looking for a non-judgmental support system, a cheerleader, if you will.

    Here’s the thing, however: lots of women have spent their entire lives fighting expectations for and opinions on their ability to do. . .well, pretty much everything. Women have learned to succeed because they believe they can–they have formed strong, internal support systems.

    As you might imagine, this takes up an enormous amount of energy. So is it at all surprising that being expected to dole out further energy to support and nuture men might make us the tiniest bit frustrated?

    I mean, my god, if we can support and nuture ourselves, then so can men. My ideal would be to find someone who can deal with his own issues, who is able to see that he can do whatever he wants and does not need external approval and coaching. I don’t want to be a coach, a mother or a cheerleader–I want to be a peer, a partner.

29. Julie Sep 29th 2007 at 04:33 pm 29

    I’m an incredibly smart, strong, successful and attractive 27 year old woman. At first I was distraught at the lack of long term relationships, and thought there may be something wrong with me.

    However, I have come to realize that while yes, it is true that most men cannot and/or don’t want to date me, this does not mean that I actually have any desire to ever change, adapt, or be “nurturing”, “gentle”, or “let him be the man”, for any man. I never want to be the lesser sex in any relationship. This does not mean that I won’t make sacrifices or compromises for the relationship, but I can’t ever sacrifice my most treasured personality traits for anyone. I cannot have a boyfriend if it means he will shadow my brilliance.

    I accept myself completely for who I am, and will not change just so I can be in a relationship where I am not completely myself. I wish more women like me would also keep up their self respect and not become some “little girl” just so that they can find a boyfriend.

    I will gladly live alone on my own means. My multi-millionaire and hopefully before I’m 40 - billionaire - means.

30. Ryan H Sep 30th 2007 at 02:10 am 30

    What kind of man wants to date a Hillary Clinton? Not me!

    Who wants to date Donald Trumps daughter? I do

    Success is relative are you the corporate kiss ass who climbed the ladder or are you the successful business owner?

    How many 0000’s are in your bank account?

    If you want that entitlement then you will be perceived that way. SHOW THE LIGHTER SIDE OF YOU. If your not going to show that side then your obviously still too focused in a career not a relationship.

    Have you reached the peak of your career and looking for man to come into your life? All these complaints is because these men are in it for short term not the long haul which is what your probably looking for.

    BOTTOM LINE: Don’t search for it because it will be like a numbers game but just go with the flow and the right guy will come. It bothers me that women whine, complain, over analyze about why this guy is that way towards them.

    Have you noticed how many men sold their porsches for a minivan the roles have changed quite a bit

31. Ryan H Sep 30th 2007 at 02:33 am 31

    1) Men don’t like smart, direct women, and
    there are men out there that like to be told what to do.

    2) I’m centered, which sends the message that I don’t need anyone.
    stability? your sitting on thousand feet of concrete?

    if you knew what you wanted you wouldn’t worry about the ‘lack of dates’

    i don’t believe the first letter too general and conclusive. There is no objective. I beleive there are more deep issues with the one who wrote that letter.

    To the 2nd letter: It’s a dating game you have to play it to win it. People want to work for something. It’s like segments of negotiations before getting to an actual commitment. It’s full of cat and mouse games and take aways with a trap like tom and jerry it’s an art form that is mastered through experience.

    3rd letter: Nice guy is the worst positive insult I’ve ever heard in my life. It’s the total opposite of what a real woman wants except for the personality traits that she would want from you. Women thinks about a brad bit exterior with a sensitive trustworthy nice guy(which he is) too bad he’s got one of the hottest chicks on the planet!

32. verbosity Oct 1st 2007 at 03:36 pm 32

    Here is my hypothesis - the smart, strong, uber-successful woman wants a man who is smarter, stronger, and more successful than she. Remember, this woman is still raised (by family media, etc.) with the belief that a man should be there to take care of the woman’s needs (look at other posts elsewhere). These smart, highly motivated women will not be happy with a man who earns less than her, who is not assertive, and who is more traditionally feminine, for lack of a better term. These women will therefore look for men who are more ‘man’ than her.

    The sad thing is this hypothesis has a negative result for women. I say this because the vast majority of very successful men do not want women to challenge them in every little facet of their personal lives. Very successful people of both sexes often spend long days in high conflict, high pressure situations. The successful men I know and have as clients desire partners that help to temper that aspect of their lives. So, with an ever-shrinking pool of men who are willing to date these uber-motivated women, you find that women are frustrated.

    It would therefore seem that some of these women could benefit from a paradigm shift.

    As an attorney, I will not date other attorneys, doctors, or other ‘hard-charging’ occupations. Why? having dated the whole gamut, I have found that almost universally, conversations are only about work, getting ahead, and competitive. I seek warmer traits in women I date. That is my preference.

    Every time this subject comes up I am reminded of an argument I got into with an ex-girlfriend of several years, another lawyer. We were in Costco (where I didn’t like going) when she said to me, “I hate the way you push the cart.” WTF?

    One man’s opinion….

33. Jacky Oct 8th 2007 at 08:02 am 33

    to Verbosity…

    more ‘man’ than her… very interesting!

34. Megan Oct 9th 2007 at 06:58 am 34

    Oddly enough I feel like I am the opposite of what is described here. At work I am aggressive, I stand up for myself, I don’t sugarcoat my opinions and I’m very focused. However when it comes to men I am very nurturing, I give them EVERY bit of myself, my time, my heart, my affection you name it. Of course i’m not a total doormat but more often than not looking back I see opportunities in the relationship that I should have been more like my work self and stood up for my opinion or position in a situation. Then eventually the guy gets sick of me giving giving giving and its over. Who is to say whether standing up for myself along the way would have changed the outcome but my point with regard to this article is that its about balance. Don’t leave your witty, articulate, powerful and determined self at work just to please a man because ultimately he probably won’t please you and most importantly you won’t please yourself. I pride myself on being outspoken and aggressive in life (I am 4′9″, 105lbs I have to be aggressive) so when I look back on instances when I let things go that normally would have got me going it makes me dissapointed and always wondering “what if”. What if I were a better balance of standing up for myself and my opinion and a little less appeasing to his manly ways? What if I were a bit less nurturing all the time, would he have wanted/appreciated me more? etc.

35. I Love You, Let’s Meet » masculinity and its discontents Oct 9th 2007 at 08:43 am 35

    […] first my online dating guru rival weighs in on Maureen Dowd’s question of why fabulous successful women can’t get dates […]

36. J NYC Oct 9th 2007 at 09:39 am 36

    wouldn’t life be wonderful if men and women could get to know each other as friends? wouldn’t it be great if relationships could be about intellectual companionship as opposed to a battle of egos, agendas, and superiority? wouldn’t life be interesting if women were real people with complex personalities, instead of being predictable collections of stereotypes? what if men sought women with the qualities they seek in their male buddies and had relationships with women of comparable closeness? what if “making life easier” meant finding fulfillment in the honest exchange of ideas as opposed to unconditional approbation? wouldn’t this then be the best of all possible worlds?

37. Christine Oct 9th 2007 at 05:05 pm 37

    I totally agree with what Evan has to say. And i’ve been trying to “minimize” talking of my successes when I go on a date with someone new. But how much do I have to hide?

    I’ve had too many men focus on asking me about work, or something of the sort and it’s becoming tiresome to keep changing the subject. If they don’t want to hear it, then they need to stop asking me about it.

    So what do men ask women that are not a “catch” about? I’m curious.

38. LS Oct 10th 2007 at 01:17 am 38

    I believe where ever possible when dating we should (both men & women) try and leave work behind. It seems (well for me anyway) to generate a better connection where possible.

    My last date shook my hand and said I will let you know.
    Well that’s what the interviewer said to me at my last job interview.
    I would prefer a date where the man behind the desk stays there and real man steps forward. It’s a date not a job interview.

39. Phillygirl Oct 11th 2007 at 06:20 am 39

    I love this blog. Each comment written here makes sense to me. I have one question for the group though! How does a successful, bright, articulate attractive woman have the ability to show the men that are intimidated by these strengths that she is indeed warm, nurturing, loving, kind, jeans and the no-makeup type over weekends type of gal?
    I have that exact problem and I am not prepared to underplay my achievements. However, I have a very soft edge, very loving, caring nurturing side and will even share that in words on a first date. I am STILL a “turn off” to most men due to my energy and positive attitude when they meet me…HELPPPPPP

40. Greg Oct 11th 2007 at 06:00 pm 40

    Evan- right on man! I am glad that SOMEONE finally intelligently articulated this concept. This is the same reason why many business deals take place on the golf course, or in the strip club, or at the upscale bar….because strong, successfull, intelligent men do not want to do business with people who can never turn the sales “schtick” off. These places allow guys to connect as people, away from the business environment where everyone is trying to impress, stroke their egos, compete, and blow smoke at everyone else. We want to know the real person we are going to be doing business with, which may result in a long-term business relationship. Same thing goes for women. Who wants to date a woman who doesn’t know when to turn it off? Leave the schmoozing, manipulating, ego stroking, best-foot-foward tactics at the office and try to connect as a real person. This is a skill that many successful, strong, intelligent women have not mastered. For this reason I have dated many economically disadvataged and sometimes uneducated women, many of them immigrants. Why?.. becuase what’s important to me are the values and principles concerning relationships they bring to the table. Most people who do not know me well, when they observe this they think that it is because I prefer subservient women whom I can control and manipulate easily. Not so! I just realized they if what is most important to me in a relationship is warmth, caring, sensitivity, well defined roles, etc., that I need to look at the real person, not their financial achievments and professional skills. Here’s a thought: Could it be that many highly educated, intelligent, successful people be emotionally ignorant?

41. Hadley Paige Oct 12th 2007 at 06:25 am 41

    to Phillygirl

    You wrote “How does a successful, bright, articulate attractive woman have the ability to show the men that are intimidated by these strengths that she is indeed warm, nurturing, loving, kind, jeans and the no-makeup type over weekends type of gal”

    Sucessful women keep saying men are intimidated by sucessful women. I guess thats a way of consoling yourselves with you accomplishments. Its not that that sucessful women are intimidating, its that the traits linked to sucess are not, broadly speaking, the traits that most men want.

    As for me when you say you can be a “weekend” type of girl. I think if I was in a relationship with a person such as yourself I would be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

42. Steve Oct 12th 2007 at 12:05 pm 42

    Wow, this was an insightful article and I am impressed with the authors tact.

    I was also impressed with the first comment. I too had the thought that it is best to be yourself, even if that turns people off, since that will happen eventually anyway. Better to see it on a first date rather than after you become attached to someone.

    However, I don’t think acting differently isn’t being yourself.

    I think it comes down to treating your romantic interest as nicely as you would treat a good friend or an acquaintance.

    The article gave the example of how men might not like “direct and honest” women if that translates to blunt uninivted criticism. Yet how many people would be blunt, harsh in telling a good friend or a business associate something they need to hear? They would be themselves, they would just adjust the way they talk to fit the situation.

    It comes down to your romantic interests being deserving of the same kind of gear shifting.

43. Phillygirl Oct 12th 2007 at 07:57 pm 43

    Hadley Paige,
    Thanks for your response. It was hardly helpful. I don’t think any man has the answer to my question of how to change the male mindset that ALL successful women have the “let’s wait and see if the shoe drops” attitude. I was asking how to break that mindset but it is becoming obvious to me that it’s not possible. It is just not fair to a person like myself who detests taking success and business “to bed at night”. Why should I be stigmatized when in fact, my success is based on my passion in the health care industry to “make a difference” to those less fortunate than myself. My success is not driven by my desire to “one up” a man or to inflate my ego, nor to prove anything to anyone.
    I guess I can’t change and won’t change. There has to be one guy out there that will fall for me despite my success. It takes an emotionally “up and operating” man to recognize the traits of a woman without being threatened by her ability to make a living.
    Thanks for your input.
    Phillygirl

44. Phillygirl Oct 12th 2007 at 07:59 pm 44

    Evan,
    Very interesting post. I guess you are a good example of a guy who refuses to believe that “successful women can be emotional”. You questioned it in your last sentence. You talk about choosing women beneath you, I find that very interesting. I wonder if you have a low self esteem? Anyway, this is not meant as a hit at you at all. YOur post is just very biased and actually quite ignorant in certain respects. Yup you’re probably saying “see she’s too direct and that’s why men are scared away”. That may be, but ignorance is tough to deal with.
    Phillygirl

45. Buster Oct 12th 2007 at 08:13 pm 45

    Well after having read this, my conclusion is : that : s

    People who are obsessed by their own achievements are a) very often boring b) wrong (confusion between SUCCESS and HAPPINESS c) because of a) and b) they are not at all attractive. This observation is valid for MEN and WOMEN.

46. downtowngal Oct 13th 2007 at 03:41 am 46

    I can’t agree more with Christine et al who are often asked about work while on dates. In NY, where everything is about work, this is what a lot of people talk about. I’m asked on dates what I do - I try to keep it general an change the subject, but if the guy is in a similar field to mine (banking) - which is common in NY - he suddenly starts shifting the conversation to shop talk an the romantic buzz goes away. So I try my best to change the subject, smile and say, ‘oh, let’s not talk about WORK - so your profile had a photo of you on a kayak - where’d you go’? or something like that. This is why I find it easier to meet guys when doing stuff I enjoy - hiking, travel, etc.

    There are lots of guys who like women with opinions, they don’t want someone who will agree with them 100% or they’ll get bored. My last 2 boyfriends were like this. And there are guys who are the opposite. A successful woman wouldn’t be happy with the latter but regardless I think it’s the way a woman comes across - competitive instead of engaging in a challenging conversation.

    And I read Maureen Dowd’s excerpt in the NYT Magazine and can’t disagree more. I know many successful women who are happily married and many successfuy guys who are married to successful women. So go figure.

47. Phillygirl Oct 14th 2007 at 11:54 am 47

    Thanks for all the comments and again to Evan, I was not taking a direct hit at you although it came across that way. I think your articles and blogs are phenomenal and it’s just the “nature of the beast”. It’s a matter of women are “damned it we are and damned if we aren’t”. I have to admit though that reading ALL these posts has made me realize that perhaps my passion for the work I do (has nothing to do with how successful I am which is a result of my passion) must bleed out (sorry I’m a nurse had to use that word) during conversations on a date and from now on, I will totally underplay what I do. I guess men are also “damned if they do and damned if they don’t”. I appreciate our Venus/Mars differences and don’t believe that either sex has it easy with respect to the single and dating world. I am probably too passionate about my field/work and need to remember all of your posts above when I go on my next date. I have a “disadvantage” in that I’m an attractive petite woman too and forget that men are visual and “hungry” and when they meet women that are appealling to the eyes (guys please don’t yell at me and accuse me of being egotistical, I’m telling it just like it is without any arrogance or self righteousness), they don’t want to hear about entrepreneurship and success. SO in this longwinded message, I’ll end it off by saying that I thank you all for “helping me” to realize that I’m a victim of my own passion and behavior. Hope this all makes sense.
    Lost in Philly

48. Steve Oct 17th 2007 at 01:56 am 48

    This article is a great companion piece to Evan’s sage essay:

    Why Nice Guys Are Losers
    http://heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

49. Steve Oct 17th 2007 at 02:07 am 49

    I grew up in a liberal household. All of the women in my family, extended family and the women among my parent’s friends were 70’s era feminists.

    To this day the idea that men and women aren’t the same ( even though they are equal ) seems, palpably, sacrilegious to me.

    If you want to live successfully in this world at some point you have to see it how it really is and deal with it accordingly instead of insisting that reality should conform to your view of it.

    In my life time of experience I have seen that men and women, while being equal, are not the same and do not want exactly the same things. If that observation makes me a sexist or a bad person, then so be it.

    As Grouch Marx said

    “Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes”

    If you want something better out of your life sometimes you have to accept a truth you don’t like so you can deal with it and make progress. I think that is where Evan’s opinions fit in.

    To use another quote, this time from Dr. Phil

    “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”

50. Why Don�t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women? - Personal Development for Smart People Forums Oct 17th 2007 at 03:23 am 50

    […] What never occurs to some women is that: They�re being evaluated on far more than their most �impressive� traits. These traits sometimes come with a significant downside that is painful to acknowledge. Take me, for example. I�m a reasonably bright guy. I make a fair living. I can write a decent joke. These are my good traits. But right behind my good traits are a series of bad traits. Anyone reading this blog can see that: The flip side of being bright is being opinionated. The flip side of being analytical is being difficult. The flip side of being funny is being sarcastic. The flip side of having moral clarity is being arrogant. The flip side of being entrepreneurial is being a workaholic. The flip side of being charismatic is being self-centered. Again, not EVERY person who is bright is opinionated, and not EVERY person who is funny is sarcastic. But there�s enough anecdotal evidence to suggest a strong correlation. And I�m just talking about MYSELF here. And if my good qualities come with bad qualities, have you considered that yours might as well? So when I hear a woman talk about how �direct� she is, the first thing I think is: �She�s tactless.� I wrote about this in an article for Match.com entitled �Are You Honest� Or Overboard?� Self-proclaimed �direct� people often tell their dates what they think about them even if the date didn�t ask. They often try to change partners who have no desire to be changed. When the partner pulls away because he doesn�t want to be with someone so critical, the �direct� person concludes that he couldn�t appreciate her �honesty�. Read the rest at: Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women? […]

51. Phillygirl Oct 18th 2007 at 03:20 am 51

    I have come to the conclusion that all you men that post on this blog are intimidated and afraid of women who are successful. It’s called “self inflicted emasculation”. Attitude and mindset is 3/4’s of the problem here.It takes a strong, emotionally centered male to be able to be with, enjoy, romanticize and have intimacy with a successful strong woman. You mean to tell me that you’ve never seen a couple together who are both on equal footing in every way? Perhaps you’ve all been burned by choosing the wrong women time and time again, versus it being every successful woman’s problem?
    Interestingly, I am in healthcare and find that many health care professionals are arrogant, self centered, tough and difficult. Does that mean that if a caring, loving, giving, kind healthcare professional who is not a loser comes along, will I stereotype him and turn him away.
    I’m sorry that you’ve all been “affected” by women who may bring in a higher paycheck than you do.

52. shellacked Oct 18th 2007 at 09:19 am 52

    Phillygirl-

    Why are you pissed off and reactive/judgmental about people you don’t even know? By my experience, anytime you start to paint groups of people (i.e. men; men who post on this blog) with as broad a brush as you did, you close yourself off a little more to the possibility of finding someone great.

    Besides, no one likes a know-it-all. No guy wants to be approached by a woman who smugly believes she knows him better than he knows himself.

    Seriously, please look at your posts and ask if you’re coming off as a person anyone would want to date.

    I don’t want to sound harsh, but am responding with the same level of force that you’ve been using in your last posts.

    You said it yourself: Attitude and mindset is 3/4’s of the problem here.

53. Phillygirl Oct 18th 2007 at 07:30 pm 53

    Shellacked,

    My responses are purely a reaction to the ongoing “bashings” that the males on this blog throw out at us women. It goes right back to the fact that “successful women have no emotions”. Ironically, these ongoing nasty postings have evoked strong emotions of sadness in me…NOT egotistical reactions. It really hurts Shellacked! Please read the postings of your friends, they are not “warm and fuzzy”. I’ve had at least 3 relationships whereby men have said to me “you appear to be so tough on the outsidek but I’m happy you “let me in as you’re actually a very sweet and loving woman”. I hope you understand where I’m coming from.
    There is a stigma attached to “my type” and it hurts.

54. Phillygirl Oct 18th 2007 at 07:31 pm 54

    I have to add that even my screen name is not indicative of a “ballbuster”….I don’t call myself Philly woman do I? LOL…..Gloria Steinman would hit me “upside my face” as we say in Philly…after all, am I a girl? Yes the last time I looked, I still was!

55. Jan Oct 22nd 2007 at 01:09 pm 55

    I cannot believe that I never thought of this before, but if I had treated my girl friends the way I treat my men - I WOULD BE FRIENDLESS. Okay Evan, I was almost prepared to hate you. Thank you for putting yourself out there to help protect us from ourselves.

    I could not figure out why I never stayed in a relationship. I would like to say that I think I am beautiful, but I don’t think so. I think it is the energy and fun loving spirit that I give off. It is this that attract men and I really am amazed that I still attract so many men at the age of 50. I also have a lot of other qualities that should make me a great catch. But woe to the poor man that pursues me. When I finish being the power house that I am at work, they are usually left in a heap.

    I am not saying that men are not without their problems but I will stop looking for every fault and then pointing these out to them. I don’t recall me doing the same thing to my girl friends. Anyway, I have recently started dating someone whom is usually on the verge of depression after every date with me. I will be more understanding and supportive, who knows he may look forward to seeing me.

56. TheObserver Oct 23rd 2007 at 01:41 am 56

    You are not fair.
    You generalize the entire male population.
    I admit most white american men do not like intelligent women, especially one that is a supporter of racial equal rights and a environmentalist. these two things tend to get at their nerves some how.

    But date more diversly and you will find large groups of men who only seek intelligent women.

57. sheseizereason Oct 23rd 2007 at 01:12 pm 57

    Observer -

    Awwww. You’re so right. How awful it is to generalize about all men.

    But how sweet it is of you to take a stand against over-generalization by generalizing about WHITE men. You’ve really made your case on this one.

58. hunter Dec 1st 2007 at 08:44 am 58

    to phillygirl,

    I would like to meet more women with a bigger paycheck than mine…hhhmmmhh…yes…the one or two I meet every 10 years or so, doesn’t help….

59. hunter Dec 4th 2007 at 10:02 pm 59

    …hhhhmmmhh…there is a silence….

60. verbosity Dec 20th 2007 at 03:22 pm 60

    Hmmmmm. This thread is similar to the one about women who earn more than men and the men who supposedly resent them.

    Many of the sentiments are the same. In general, I do not see men bashing (meaning ad hominem attacks) that much, if at all.

    i would like to kindly state Phillygirl, that you posit a no-win scenario for yourself and men in general. First is your assumption that men are intimidated by strong, successful women. Then, upon receiving refuting commentary to the contrary, you simply dismiss it out-of-hand and stick with your assumption that men are intimidated by women. Aside from indirectly calling men cowards, your position shows a lack of respect for the points many men posted here. You are correct in that attitude and mindset is part of the issue…

    Am I the only who sees the basic insanity of this thread’s theme? That being, men are intimidated by strong, successful women. So men, just listen to us strong, successful women and stop being intimidated. As if kowtowing to this demand will instill respect.

    IMHO, respect is lacking from the female perspective on this, in that many (not all) female posters simply refuse to acknowledge the points many men posted, thereby showing disrespect by not listening and acknowledging what they are saying.

    My buddy says most women are like radio towers….great at transmitting, not so good at receiving.

61. verbosity Jan 8th 2008 at 11:49 am 61

    A lull in the action…

62. Mo Mar 5th 2008 at 09:47 pm 62

    Why are men turned off by smart, successful women? I think the answer comes from back in high school days boys it seems like would get turned off when the girls would start to brag about how good they were and say things like I got a better grades than you and have this catty attitude that they are better than anyone else. It seems like girls back in the high school days would rub it in and I think it turned the boys off that it stayed with them even after high school and can’t stand that cattiness attitude.Even if women don’t mean to use the I’m better than you/cattiness attitude in the adult lives when getting an MBA/graduate degree I think it still comes across to men that the women that get MBA /graduate degree or are naturally “smart” just rubs men the wrong way. To some men when they hear a lady say I just finished with my MBA/Graduate degree there is just simply something in our brans that naturally turn us off and some men when they hear that they got these graduate degrees or naturally “smart” some men’s brains just turn and think ohh she was one of “those women” and those men would rather walk away cause they can’t stand that cattiness or the “I’m better than you” type attitude. I don’t think it’s necessarily that you are smart or have a grad degree or MBA or whatever but I think a lot of it is the tone of voice when women say they have their graduate degree MBA. I think the tone of voice just comes off wrong and turns a lot of men off.

    I think it’s a natural fear men have built up and have seen it starting in high school days and also in the work force like when women are even catty to other girls and not necessarily to the men it just comes off wrong to men.

63. hunter Mar 5th 2008 at 10:23 pm 63

    to Mo,

    Successful women I have met(and I haven’t met many) like to put me down, in public, and I don’t enjoy that….

64. hunter Mar 5th 2008 at 10:24 pm 64

    to Mo,

    But of course men make mistakes, we can still talk about it in private.

65. Delia Mar 5th 2008 at 10:28 pm 65

    Real Men don’t have to prove themselves. And Real Men are proud of women who are strong and accomplished. There’s room enough for all of us Male AND Female to be all that we can be. Women who use a Certain Tone of Voice when boasting about themselves would be annoying, however I DO agree with you on that!
    Some guys are very proud of successful women. And certain women are deserving of that pride.

66. Mo Mar 6th 2008 at 06:11 am 66

    To Delia,

    Yes Real men and women still do have to prove themselves especially in todays world with such a hard economy. I my self is a real man and have strong accomplishments and proud of successful women but just saying that there are just some men out there that simply turn them off. But then there are some of the smartest men and women that have gotten the best degrees enter the “real world” and fall flat on their face because they are good in the academic world but for the life of them can’t get going and struggle in the real world for a job.

67. m Mar 6th 2008 at 11:33 am 67

    “To some men when they hear a lady say I just finished with my MBA/Graduate degree”

    Jeez. If this is what constitutes bragging to men, you all are even more fragile than I thought you were.

    It’s a mere statement of fact.

    HOW is that BRAGGING?

    Does it never occur to you “women should ONLY stay in the kitchen and raise babies” types that in order to even BEGIN to afford the babies, both you and your wife are going to have to work? At good jobs with advancement potential? At actual careers? Careers frequently requiring advanced education, particularly for the woman (since men are more frequently hired with less education than the woman for the same job, and women still make only 76% of what men make)? BOTH of you??

    Or are you just in complete denial about the fact that absent meticulous financial planning from, like, your own birth, only the very upper echelon of working men — SVP- and EVP-level, senior-equity-partner-level — can begin to afford to have their wives stay home?

    When was the last time any of you tried to run a household and put children through college on a single salary?

    [We’re not even going to get into the MEN who yammer on for, like, HOURS about their accomplishments and what they have and who worships them and where they’ve traveled — never mind that these men are apparently completely clueless about how this behavior MAGNETIZES the “gold diggers” to them that they purport to loathe — never mind that these men are clueless that the woman they’re talking AT (not “to”, because that would *gasp* require her actual participation in the conversation) is BORED TO TEARS by their little recital.]

    “I think it still comes across to men that the women that get MBA /graduate degree or are naturally “smart” just rubs men the wrong way.”

    Oh, OK.

    Then please do us a favor, Mo.

    Stick a sign on your forehead so that women who are “naturally smart” will know who you are and can just stay away from you.

    Then, neither you, nor they, will have to be bothered.

    *smh*

68. Michael Ejercito Mar 6th 2008 at 11:57 am 68

    I have no problems with women bring smart, strong, or successful.

    In fact, I am willing to date someone who is four inches taller than me.

69. Hadley Paige Mar 7th 2008 at 01:46 pm 69

    M writes: “only the very upper echelon of working men — SVP- and EVP-level, senior-equity-partner-level — can begin to afford to have their wives stay home?”

    Where does this statistic come from? I doubt it is true. It is quite possible to live on most husband’s salaries. One need only to not fall into the trap of endless material desire. Just live in a more modest home in a more modest heighborhood with a more modest car, go on more modest vacations and have less crapola.

    I think M’s statement is a rationalization on M’s part to justify career women to men who would rather not have a carrer woman as a spouse.

    I for one would rather have my wife stay at home and deal full time with the home & home making & kids and would happily live with less stuff. Kids need sane, calm, loving, unstressed moms more than they need the latest $100 sneakers or $200 electronic device or $100/mo cellphones.

70. m Mar 7th 2008 at 04:29 pm 70

    “…a rationalization on M’s part to justify career women to men who would rather not have a carrer woman as a spouse.”

    Um, no.

    That’s not what I’m saying at all.

    1) First, it’s not about “forcing” someone to want someone they don’t want. (Yeah, that would be a real positive relationship.)

    It’s just about questioning yourself and determining whether your preferences are realistic. It’s one thing to live with “less stuff”, as you say — it’s another to try to live without a place to live.

    2) It’s not about buying excess cellphones and sneakers and blah blah blah. It’s about the cost of a mortgage when the subprime market is imploding, about retirement funds when 401Ks are being gutted by unscrupulous investing, about college education for your kids when Pell funds are bein